Did I blow my front seal???
 

Hi all I've got a problem similar to the one BRYAN0010 posted about but didn't want to hijack his thread so starting this one.

Here is the story with my 4l60e in my 97 ls:

First, I had P1870 error code and noticeable transmission slippage on the highway.
I dropped the pan and installed a tekpack valve, put my filter and pan back on.
Now the bad part: I wasn't paying attention and dumped nearly 6 quarts of fluid back into the tranny after installing the tekpack. (Only about 4 quarts came out when I dropped the pan, of course).
I didn't catch my error right away, in fact I drove over 200 miles across a couple days before realizing that there was just way too much fluid in there. Note, it was still driving perfectly at this point. TC lock no problem, smooth shifts, etc.
Still, I knew I needed to get the excess out so I got a hand pump and took out about two quarts through the dipstick tube. I thought that would about do it and no harm done right?
So I took off to head out of town, shifting great and TC lockup great, everything great until about 10 miles down the road suddenly smoke rolling out from under the hood and under the body.
I pull over immediately and pretty easily can see that the vent tube tied to the top of the dipstick has been spewing lots of fluid which was hitting the exhaust.
I let it cool down and drive it home (stopping once on the way to let it cool again, as it started spewing fluid and smoking again).
It then sat for 4 days as I had no time to investigate further.
So 4 days later I pressure wash everything off, use my hand pump again and remove another 2 quarts. I start it up and seems fine. I slowly add fluid over the course of 45 minutes, shift the gears, go for a 1 mile drive, etc, until the level seems ok. Hard to read the dipstick at this point. Shut it off in the driveway and go in for the night.
This morning I start it up and wipe the dipstick, jam it in and comes back right on the cold mark. Perfect!
I take off for work and get about 8 miles before vent tube spews fluid everywhere and onto exhaust again. Crud!
So now I don't know what the heck. I let it cool a bit, drove halfway home before the smoke started rolling again, pulled onto a side road and let it cool a little more.
Then I drove home 30 mph backroad the last 5 miles and had no issues.
Still shifting smooth. All gears work. TC lockup works.

So... do I still just have too much fluid or... did the front pump seal blow out? The pump seal was BRAND NEW last month, as we had the motor out anyways.

Any way I can be sure its the seal without dropping the tranny? I don't know whether I should drop the pan and try refilling one more time or just go straight to pulling the transmission. Any thoughts? Any ideas why it would be fine for a few miles and then blow fluid?

One thing is certain, I will never overfill a tranny again :(

Zero out all codes and see if P1870 comes back. If it does it's not truly fixed just masked. You will need a better quality scanner to see if it is getting more than 200 RPM's of slip. If the torque converter has had a slip problem, it is probably glazed over. I would pull it and overhaul it with a new converter. That's me though and it is my specialty. I have had over a 90% success rate with a Gil Younger (RIP) orange box shift kit and the P1870 code. Only the severely glazed converters required a Trans pull
Keep us posted

Thanks for the reply Tranzman! I cleared all codes after I installed the teckpak. It has thrown no codes since then at all. My scanner has live data output so I can see the RPMs, it appears to be fully locked up on the highway although I guess its hard to say for sure without knowing exactly what the RPMS should be at say 60 MPH. All shifts seem good and working well except for the spurting of fluid after a few minutes at 60 MPH.

It can idle for an hour in the driveway and not spit any fluid, it can drive around 30-35 MPH no issues... still just weird that it didn't give any trouble until 200-250 miles AFTER installing the teckpak, I don't know what to think of that.

It did have P1870 for quite a while before being fixed, is there any specific way to inspect the torque converter to determine whether it is glazed over? Getting a new one is not really the end of the world. Given enough money I would get a new TC and have my 4l60e rebuild but... not much monies available right now.. hence me poking around hoping someone will tell me to put in a couple seals and try it again.

Transmission problems)
 

Here is what I've found so far:

The hose at the dipstick tube is a transfer case vent
The transmission is a pain in the ass to remove
There appears to be a return hole in the back of the tranny (see pic)
Hanyes repair manuals USED to be good. Now they suck.


Here is what I've installed so far:

Shift kit. (Identified known issues and cool to install)
Additional transmission cooler

I'm in the process of installing a reman transmission. Hopefully that will resolve the issue. The fact that the fluid was coming from the transfer vent has me a little concerned though.

I've been told to add LUBEGARD. I was unable to locate it at the autoparts store but I did find some Lucas Automatic Transmission Conditioner. I'm going to add that when I finally get the replacement transmission installed.

A transfer case vent eh? So probably... I overfilled the transmission, blew a seal to the transfer case (?) filled that with fluid (which now spews out at highway speeds)... that would explain why draining and refilling the transmission didn't help, cuz the extra fluid was in the transfer case not in the transmission itself. Seems legit?

I watched some youtube videos on pulling the transmission but have not tackled it yet, been busy with other cars. The blazer has literally sat motionless this whole time and will be for a while yet until I have some free time =/

I really appreciate the input guys, here I was thinking I would need a new tranny but perhaps I can get by with some seals? Or, do I have my theory all wrong? (could easily happen, knowing me)

before i pulled the transmission I would check the fluid levels in the transfer case, if it's overfull i'd pull it and replace the front seal in it - then get all fluid levels where they belong and see what happens

Transfer Case Input Seal
 

I took a pic this morning of the input side on the transfer case. There is s seal on it. I think that the problem that I was having was an overheating transmission pushing the fluid back into the transfer case and then out the breather. The transmission cooling lines where hot to the touch.

your trans cooler lines will be hot to the touch even with a remote cooler - do you have a temp gauge in trans if so how hot is it geting - i could be wrong but IMO with both of you guys the seal on the transfer case is bad letting trans fluid into the transfer case and over filling it - once over filled it has to have a place to go so it pukes out the vent tube - also it could be running the trans low on fluid and causing slipage -

I checked both in output and the return lines while the engine was running and both of them were hot to the touch. I would think that the return line should be cooler than the output. I haven't got a chance to install a temp gauge on the transmission yet. I looked at the seal on the transfer case. It looks like it's designed to keep the fluid in it. I could be wrong though. I will find out once I get the transmission put back up in. I had topped off the fluid the last time I drove it. By the time I got back on a 10 mile drive it was low again. I should have an update soon once I get the time finish up. I noticed that the rear main seal was leaking also so I'm going to replace that also.

I have have two vehicles that have a trans gauge a 88 rx7 with a slightly beefed sb 350 - 2004r combo with a large remote cooler, trans temp runs around 140-150 can be higher if being raced - my 98 dodge cummins with stock remote cooler runs around 160, higher if towing - both intake and output lines are going to be hot enough to burn you if hang on to them - think of it as being the same as grabing the radiator hoses on your engine both are going to be darn hot and by feeling them you wont be able to tell the difference in temps between the two - it's been a few years since i changed one but if i remember right the seal between the trans and the transfer case is a double sided seal that keeps the fluid from going either way - if you see no external leaks on the trans or the transfer case and if the fluid level in the transfer case changes the seal is usually bad and needs replaced - just my 2 cents

After some research, I'm going with the transfer shaft seal also. Check out the link. Thanks.GMC Sonoma & Chevy S-10 Transfer Case Vacuum Switch

Great info, thanks! When I get a chance I will drain the transfer case and see what comes out (should be gear lube, if any red ATF comes out then that input seal is probably the culprit right?) and then I'll also drain the transmission again so I can refill both and see what happens, see if the tranny fluid level goes down then for sure that seal would be bad... or does anyone think I oughta just drop the transfer case and do that seal right away? As I understand it getting the transfer case in and out is a little less headache than the transmission...

Transfer case fluid is transmission fluid, not gear oil. Remove the top Fill plug, and if fluid comes out your seal is leaking. This will also screw up your heater vent selections

I've installed a reman transmission, transfer case input seal, auxiliary transmission cooler, inline transmission fluid filter, and a MaxTow transmission temp gauge. Everything seems to be working pretty good.

good job

I got my transfer case out last night. Still have to acquire the input shaft seal and the gasket to the adapter. Question, there doesn't appear to be any other gasket like on the transmission side inside of the transmission/adapter. Is that correct? Is it pretty much just wide open fluid allowed into the adapter area and only the input shaft seal on the transfer case is responsible for keeping fluid out?

That is correct. There is no seal on the output shaft of the transmission. The input seal on the transfer case is a dual seal. It keeps the fluid in the transfer case and the the transmission fluid out.

Thanks.

When I di my tranny the adapter is where it leaked when filling it intil I tightened it up so I would say yes there is fluid in there also

gaskets
 

The input seal for the transfer case is a double lip seal. Keeps fluid from getting in or out of the TFC. The rear of the transmission to TFC adapter takes a 5 hole gasket. The transmission side (front) of the adapter takes a square o-ring seal to keep all the fluid from the transmission from leaking out. The seal should have come with the transmission. The 5 hole gasket you can get from any trans shop. If you can't try a NAPA parts store. PM if you come up short and I'll send you one on the mail. I stock it. I still build the occasional 4L60E. Tranzman

Thank you much everyone, I got a new seal and per Tranzman I stopped into a local mom & pop transmission garage and of course they had a whole stack of those 5 hole gaskets on hand, $2.50.

Now I just need to put the new seal in and re-install the transfer case. I've been delayed because the crankshaft position sensor went out in my girlfriend's volkswagen... gotta tackle that first and get her back on the road. Then I can get back to my own stuff, assuming I don't die under her car (all my jackstands are under my blazer... I'll have to use the car's scissor jack in combination with my floor jack for any semblance of safety =/ )

Progress is pretty slow around here. I fired up a heater in the garage on Sunday and removed the old seal, was a double lipped one. I only had a single lipped seal on hand, they told me at the parts store that the double lipped ones can be trouble and it was way cheaper for a single lipped seal.

I put the single lipped seal in. Then I sat around for a long time trying to figure out if I had put it in backwards or not... after googling a bunch it seemed like everyone had their seals facing the opposite direction of mine. I wondered if it really mattered which way it went, it has to seal fluid on both sides doesn't it so would it matter which way I put it? This racked my brain for some time. Finally, I ran over to the store and grabbed yet another single lipped seal. I noticed there was plenty of room so I drove the second seal in next to the first one, facing the opposite way.

I thought that would be foolproof, no way it can leak now right? I heaved the stupid thing back into place and bolted it back up to the transmission, and reinstalled the crossmember. Then I was tired and I left it alone still need to hook up the driveshafts and refill it.

Sitting inside the house, I am second guessing myself for the second time. True, two seals mirroring eachother sounded good and they both fit and seemed ok... but now I'm wondering if I should have flipped my seals. I installed them with the lips facing eachother. Perhaps they should have both been lips facing out? Perhaps it was foolish to stick two seals together in the first place? Also, I totally did not pre-lubricate those before installing the transfer case.

So now... could use some input... is this going to be ok? Should I finish putting it back together and just see what happens? Assuming the worst that can happen is both seals fail quickly and I have to redo this whole job =/

I've never had trouble with the double lipped seal - I think the parts guy was feeding you a line - could be he didn't have the right one in stock - Also two seals might work but I think the lips need to be facing in towards the oil IMO if you have the lips facing each other they will fail

Im thinking the same thing odat. Its too cold to work in my garage, it will be all I can do to get the driveshafts on and pump some ATF into the transfer case. At that point, though, it will be mobile enough to make the 6 mile journey over to my old man's heated garage. He is re-assembling a tractor in his garage currently but that will be out soon.

At that time, I can buzz over there in the blazer and between the two of us we can probably slide the transfer case back and support it with something, weasel that plate holding the seals out of there, flip the seals around assuming 6 dry miles didn't wreck them, and re-assemble. Alternatively, I could just put in the double lipped seal at that time and that might be the smarter move. The whole 'jammin two seals in there together' thing is still pretty hoaky.

Good grief. Its like this thing is never going to be on the road again.

Sorry, I have been busy and I picked up a virus on my computer. Computer is fixed now. The guy at the parts store doesn’t understand the need or function of the double lip seal required in this position. Let me explain… The TFC front seal is a double lip seal on purpose. The spring side of any seal is supposed to go toward the area it is sealing. In this spot you are trying to trap fluid from two areas. 1st on the transmission side. If you go back track this thread to the pictures on page 1 that BRYAN0010 posted (thank you Bryan) of the TFC & transmission. You will see the transmission has two stand outs below the output shaft. The one to the left has an orificed cup plug in it. This plug is in all cases regardless whether it is 2WD or 4WD. It is designed to lube the rear extension housing bushing on a 2WD. It squirts fluid directly at the 4WD TFC front seal. It can and does fill the TFC full of fluid if the seal is bad or not installed properly. Test the theory if you must fire up the motor and watch it squirt!!! (Can’t remember if I had to put it in gear or not) I did and made a hell of a mess, but I proved my point to the boss!!! (spell BOSS backwards that’s usually how they are) 2nd the TFC side needs to trap the fluid inside and not get into the trans and over fill it. The TFC has its own pump for lubricating it’s components. Hope the 411 helps.

Glad I was able to help Tranzman. My Blazer is still running good. I damaged the cat though when I was driving some broken bolts off of it. It's not a high priority for me now. I've got some other projects to work on. Have a good one.

Thanks tranzman that makes sense, and glad your blazer is working good Bryan.

I finished putting everything back together because this project has been taking up space for too long and the garage is unheated so I have a hard time keeping my fingers nimble out there to do much. Desperately want to park my daily driver car in there. So the seals are still in there and still facing the wrong way. I backed it out had to add a surprising amount of fluid back to the transmission. For the hell of it I did a two mile test drive never really got over 50 MPH but things seemed to be working.

So now it sits and it *can* drive but of course its just super questionable whether its smart to drive it when those seals are installed backwards. I wonder how many miles they would last like that (but I don't really want to find out). Dad is still assembling his tractor so no openings in his heated garage yet.

tranzman have you ever seen/heard of people putting two single lipped seals in back-to-back like I did (except flipped around so the lips face out instead of towards each other, of course)? It seems weird that the race is long enough two seals fit ok in there. Basically what I'm getting at is, when I do get it in the garage again, should I:
a) take those two single lipped seals out and put a double lipped seal in (most expensive option, they get like $36 for that double lipped seal)
b) buy two more single lipped seals, install them together lips facing out (at $13 each its cheaper than the double seal)
c) Just flip the seals I have around and re-use them, assuming 10 miles of driving didn't do any notable damage (free!)

I shouldn't screw around trying to save a couple bucks but I am on a tight budget. If I can get away for cheap I'm inclined to do so. If two seals fit back to back without issue (they seem to) and if the seals I have now are not really affected by being installed wrong for 10 miles... saving that $36 would be really nice. Then I could afford to put a dribble of gas in this thing when I'm done...

Holy Sh-- where are you getting seals from - if you have a Oriellys there check with them - single lip $6.49 - double lip $10.99 both national brand - if you don't have a Orielys there try Oriellys on line even after shiping might still be cheaper than what your paying

auto value, the only parts store for 16 miles and that next store is an auto value also. If I drive 50-75 miles I can go to an oriellys or advanced auto. Could probably have ordered them online cheap too but as you can tell I didn't try too hard. I wanted the seal(s) right away that day so I could put them in during my narrow window of free time.

One of my machinist friends thinks the seals will hold as is. He thinks a bit of fluid might push past the first seal but will stop there. Time will tell I guess. I'm going to roll it in the garage again tomorrow if I have time and check fluid levels and try to make my 4x4 actuator work again, or else toss it out and pull the cable get it locked into 4x4 and leave it that way for the rest of the winter. I never use 2 wheel drive unless its summer anyways.

Gone about 175 miles without any issues from the transmission or transfer case so far. Now the problem I'm facing is that my newly rebuilt starter, on occasion, refuses to work. All I get is a CLICK when I turn the key and nothing else. Totally rebuilt starter done by professionals, new solenoid and everything. Oh well. Other than that, it seems to be working. I am going to double check the fill on the transfer case soon.