Alright, let's tackle the Dual 2ohm, Dual 4 ohm, voice coil impedance first. I'm not sure exactly how much you know about how a speaker works so I'm going to start with the basics. The voice coil in a speaker is simply a tube (made from paper, aluminum, plastic, etc.) attached at the bottom of the cone with wire wrapped around it. Electrically any time current travels through a wire it creates a magnetic field, when you configure that wire in a coil that field gets much stronger. In a speaker that magnetic field tries to move into/away from the magnet in the motor which in turn moves the cone, which moves the air, which we hear as sounds, music, etc. That coil has a resistance (impedance in the case of coils) to it and that is expressed in ohms. For example, when you looked at your new Pioneer speakers they most likely said on the packaging/back of the speaker somewhere 4 ohms. That means the voice coil on each one is a 4 ohm nominal impedance. The only difference between that and a subwoofer is that some (or most) subwoofers have dual voice coils. That simply means they have two coils wrapped around the same former. All that is really doing is giving the user the flexibility to change how it's wired to the amp for a different ohm load on the amp which changes the power output. For example, an amplifier may be rated 500 watts @ 4 ohms, 750 watts @ 2 ohms, and 1000 watts @ 1 ohm. So if you take a dual 2 ohm voice coil subwoofer and wire the coils in series ( 2 + 2 ) for a 4 ohm load that amp could give the sub a maximum of 500 watts of power. If you took that same sub and wired the voice coils in parallel ( 2 / 2 ) for a 1 ohm load then that amp could give the sub 1,000 watts of power. That can help save money since its cheaper to buy an amp that makes 1,000 watts of power at 1 ohm than an amp that can make 1,000 watts of power at 4 ohms.

Hope that makes some sense.

As for the other options on the Q:
Cooling - An option that adds more cooling capability to the sub for a little more power handling
Dust cap - You can choose what color the Fi logo is on the dustcap. With Fi you can for all their subs.
P Chamfer - Another option that aids cooling.
High QTS - Changes the Q alignment of the sub for a better response alignment in sealed enclosures. Still allows use for ported enclosures, necessary if you plan to go sealed.
Spider - Adds yet another spider (yellow/black accordion looking thing just below the cone) to the assembly. Helps with linear movement and increases the sub's mechanical power handling capability.
I Heat Ring - Inductance reducing ring in the motor. Useful in almost all cases as anything that can reduce inductance is a good thing.
Internal Lead - The Tinsel Leads are the flexible wires that go from the terminals where you connect the speaker wire to the voice coil below the cone. The internal lead option sandwiches the leads between the spiders. Not a necessary option for most applications.

If you need any more explanation on a specific one, just ask.

Now, at this point it's hard to make a solid recommendation without knowing what your budget is for the amp. The budget for the amp will determine what kind of power you're looking at and therefore what series of sub would suit you best. While there's no such thing as underpowering a sub (giving 500 watts to a 1500 watt sub for example) in the sense it would ever hurt anything, you can very well damage/destroy one with too much power (giving a 500 watt sub 1500 watts of power). It can be done but if a person isn't experienced doing so or isn't watching what they're doing the magic smoke will be released and the sub will cease to work. For example, you could go with a GCON and a SoundQubed (formerly known as AudioQue, a fairly decent company) Q1-750 amplifier and come in right at/under $500 for both. If you're looking at a budget that could afford you a more powerful amp then something like an ICON or Q could be better utilized. That's not to say you couldn't get a PPI BK1300.1D (usually about $180) and give a Q 1,300 watts for about the same money. There's such a HUGE range of choices when it comes to subs and amps it can get overwhelming very fast. Clearly defining what you want from the sub stage will be the most beneficial, then giving that goal a budget and the options can be narrowed down the best.

Tell you what, define what you're really wanting from your sub. Include past experiences with your own and other peoples setups as well to help give a good picture of what you really want and a recommendation will be much easier to give. One thing is for certain, it won't much matter which sub you go with from Fi, SSA, or any other reputable company it's going to give you good clean bass with a proper enclosure. Richphotos, a member here, can give a personal account on the difference between a cheap sub and a decent one. The enclosure will make the biggest difference on the response and output of the sub and I can help give you a good design to build one if you can do that yourself. It will save you money and be 1,000 times better than one that's pre built on a shelf at a store.


Wow, I done it again, typing on forever, lol. That's a lot of information, but hopefully it's helpful.

 

All of the information is extremely helpful !

I have thought about it some more and came up with some things to be pointed out for what I want, to help pinpoint what I should be looking at.

So budget really isn't too big of a concern as long as each item is under 300 ea. because I am building this piece by piece. I am making a purchase every other payday to make sure rents paid haha. Making it easier to justify each pricy component :P

-I do want my subs to hit the low bass notes very hard (good spl)
-I do want my subs to hit the low bass notes very clean/tight (high sound quality)
-I do want my subs to be able to take at least 500 rms and hold strong for a long long time. (no cheap materials) I think anything over 500rms ea. right now would be fairly unnecessary. Will already take breath away from those in the back seat.
-I do want my subs to hit a wide range of bass with no struggle or feedback or any extra annoying noises.

I listen to a lot of rap, hip-hop, and EDM music, so tons of heavy low bass. Which I want to hear properly reproduced.

I have heard a bunch of peoples systems in the past and have always had some complaints, but knowing what I know now, it was most likely their fault. (overpowering subs, not tuned properly, wrong box, wired wrong, etc) So it makes it harder to know what I don't want, and harder to put into words as far as sound.

All that being said, I have looked at a couple subs from each company and read a bunch of reviews of each product.

What are your thoughts on Incriminator ? The LI series seems pretty awesome considering the price. Also right around what I wanted to spend per sub. Also noticed in the specs it comes stock with what some of the others were charging extra for...
LI-12 D4 Incriminator Audio 12" 600W Dual 4-Ohm Lethal Injection Series
Also the Fi.X's are pretty nice as well. Could easily see myself with either set of 12's
X12 - Fi Car Audio Store


edit: Love the H/U btw, its sexy, and has more features than I know what to do with haha. Thank you !

 

That's a fairly decent description of what you want. Pretty much every one of the subs built by the companies we're currently discussing can give you that though. It's kinda what any sub should do, lol.

One thing to remember is that there's no such thing as underpowering a sub. The power rating is only a rating which gives you an idea of what the thermal limit of the coil is, that's all. Even if you built a 1,000,000 watt speaker you could probably still blow it with 1,000 by playing it in free air, outside an enclosure. Sure, it wouldn't burn up the coil, but it could still be damaged mechanically by the cone/spiders/coil moving too far and slamming into the back plate, tearing the surround or spider, or running all the way up out of the gap in the motor.

There's compromise in every aspect of audio. The best thought out and utilized systems are done knowing/understanding what those compromises are and minimizing the negative effects as much as possible. That being said, the IA LI's are great subs with great ability for low end extension and are designed to do it loud with great quality. The Fi X's are great subs that are under appreciated. Everyone who's even a little obsessed with output thinks they need something with thousands of watts to get loud when in reality eats very feasible to do so with something smaller. The SSA GCON is also the equivalent of the LI and X, though with the higher price tag isn't quite as budget friendly. You'd have to step up to the Fi Q, SSA XCON or IA Death Row to get any real difference in the subs to get a really noticeable difference in performance. Just remember that no matter what sub you choose you don't HAVE to give it rated power to reach it's maximum potential. Also, if you got one with a higher power rating than you plan to use right now it leaves the flexibility to upgrade down the road without having to go out and buy new subs again just in case you felt the need for more power or just going bigger period.

Just on the sub's specifications I favor the Fi X series for it's slight edge in motor force, ever so slight difference in sensitivity, a lower moving mass, natural lower inductance, and lower Qts. They're so similar that any comparison to the other and which one would beat out the other in a given situation would be a wash. No matter what you compare, apples to oranges, Ford's to Chevy's, Honda's to Yamaha's, there's always going to be pro's and cons for each in any given situation. I think in this case it may come down to which brand you want to show off, lol.

As for the HU, I'm glad you're liking it. Read up online about using and adjusting the time alignment, I think you'll truly enjoy the difference that will make for your sound stage and imaging! Once you get used to the adjustability of the unit and everything it can do for the quality of the sound you're getting from your system you'll REALLY love it.

 

Yup I agree, when looking over the specs for all of them, they are apples to oranges. Your 100 % correct again ! Also you read my mind, it will ultimately come down to what I want to show off more...hence being stuck inbetween two very sexy subs (both in design and functionality).

I am thinking on sticking with the X-12's Great bang for the buck it seems ! With lots of room for power upgrades. Looks like they can take a lot more than I plan on giving them for now which is nice. Also they have specs for either ported or sealed which gives me time to think about which box I want and the differences in bass between the two if any (more research !).

So next thing brings me back to the original post finally ! The amp/amps. I have plans for getting that RF P300-4 purchased and in the mail here in the next few weeks ! Whoopeeee !!!

Now to start the pairing of amp/or amps for the subs. From what I gathered from your post as well as others, to start this I would be looking at the Dual 4 Ohm option on both to give me the most options for wiring into the amp/amps.

 

KK since im still needing help on how the amp works with subs ohm loads. I figured I would try this out and give an example of what I am understanding, and have somebody fix where I am wrong.

Some of my confusion was with the channel options on amps, I thought the channel option was kinda used to dictate how many speakers should be run through said amp.
(ex. Monoblock=1 speaker, 2channel-speaker, 4 channel-4speakers) Wasn't aware that a monoblock amp could be wired to run 2 12's. If this is wrong please let me know now before I continue.

With that I think I have a grasp on some of this, depending on the wiring of course.

Massive Audio N3 Nano Monoblock 2800W Max Amplifier
^^^^Example Amp^^^
@4ohms - 450wx1
@2ohms - 700wx1
@1ohm - 1400wx1

If I had 2 FiX-12's Dual 2 Ohm VC's
Wired each 12 in parallel 2/2=1ohm, per sub , bringing the total to a 2ohm load, would said amp give 700w to each sub?

 

Awesome, you're going to love what that amp does for your highs. There are some very noticeable differences between sealed and ported. However, many of the issues that people who don't like them, have with ported enclosures has much more to do with poor design and alignment choice than anything else.


You're correct. For that matter any amp, if wired correctly, can run any number of speakers as long as the final impedance is not below the amp's capability. For example, you could wire 32 8 ohm speakers to a 2 channel amp, 16 on each channel. All you have to do is wire them series-parallel for a final 2 ohm load (wired series in pairs for eight 16 ohm loads, then all the pairs wired in parallel 16ohms/8 pair = 2ohm). It's not practical, but it's definitely doable.

Your math is sound, however each sub would get 350 watts. In ANY circuit the power applied is divided among each load in the circuit. In a parallel circuit voltage is the same for each load but the current is divided between the loads. In a series circuit the current is the same but the voltage is divided between the loads. When all the loads (resistance) are the same it's an even division. Say you have parallel circuit with two 5 ohm resistors with 50v applied and 10A of current. That's 500 watts of power total (V * A), but if you measured the current through each resistor you'll only measure 5A. 50v * 5A is 250 watts. For the same circuit wired in series there's still 50v applied and 10A of current flowing, but it doesn't matter where you measure the current flow, it's always 10A. However, if you measure the voltage drop across each load it will be 25v and 25v * 10A is 250 watts. It's basic electricity and ohms law. The only time they will be different is if the resistance of the loads are different, such as using one 4 ohm and one 8 ohm speaker connected in parallel. The final circuit resistance in that case is 2.6 ohms and if you applied 50v the total current flow would be 18.75A and 937.5 watts of power total. While both loads would see the same voltage (50V) the 4 ohm load would be flowing 12.5A of current and seeing 625 watts of power while the 8 ohm load would be flowing 6.25A of current and seeing 312.5 watts of power. If you do the math the total power applied is still 937.5 watts, it's just not evenly divided because the loads are different.

I would actually suggest getting the D4 coil configurations on the X's, then get an amp that give you satisfactory power output at 1 ohm. All you need to do then is wire the voicecoils in parallel and the subs together in parallel for a final 1 ohm load. The amp will be cheaper if you can find one that does the power you want at 1 ohm as opposed to 2 ohms. The PPI Black Ice series amps are very nice amps that do great for the money. Something like the PPI BK1300.1D would give each sub about 625wrms each at one ohm which would be pretty damn good. Or you could go for a little overkill (my favorite way to go, lol) and get something like the PPI BK1800.1D and have a little headroom for a bit less distortion at higher volume levels. For that matter, if money was no object and you wanted versatility you could get something like a Crescendo Audio BC3500 or a BC5500 and wire the subs series/parallel for a final 4 ohm load. Then, down the road, if you ever got higher powered subs all you'd have to do is order the coil configuration appropriately and wire them accordingly for crazy power, lol, but I digress.

Hopefully that helps clear up how the power applied is working in a given circuit and shows you why each sub wouldn't get 700w in the example you gave. I look forward to hearing back about what you think of the Rockford amp on your speakers.

 

Aha !! Something finally clicked ! LIGHTBULBS !! I think i'm getting a better grasp as far how the power output is distributed amongst not just each sub, but each vc as well !. Which helps me make my own educated decisions, with some guidance of course haha.

I am glad you pointed out my mistake with that example. I would have kept on going on with that incorrectly until somebody stopped me. I had forgotten a key piece of math there haha...did the math right with two dvc's but didn't divide the power output in half since there are TWO subs....big difference :P

Seriously Alton, you have helped me soooo much and every single bit of information is greatly appreciated. I couldn't have gotten this far correctly without that guidance ! I now have a fairly solid plan for the rest of the build hurray ! and not being familiar with basic electricity is a pain to teach people but your a patient guy and that is a rare thing to find. It's kinda like teaching a kid to ride a bike...takes a bit of time but you know it's possible with the right help.

I should be able to get that RF weeks ahead of schedule as of today, had some stuff go down with my living situation...nothing terrible, just annoying for the next couple upcoming months. With that though I will be paying a fraction of what I was paying in rent for a few months :P (more audio build wooooo). Was going to wait 3 weeks til I could order it, might be Friday instead !

The next purchases would be getting the X's in the mail, and yes I do love your ideas for the amps for those as well. I think I will be going with the Precision Power PPI BK1800.1D (BK18001D) 1800W RMS Mono Class D Black Ice Car Amp
I like that it has the overhead I will be needing, even more since I think the X's are underrated which will be nice to find out with that extra power ! (once their broken in that is) It is price right at what I expected to pay to power these bad boys so that works perfect, I needed to know reputable brands to look at, didn't know which brands to believe when they advertise great products. First hand experience from somebody is the way to go.

And now.....we wait for money haha !! Oh and a build threat w/pictures once that amp gets here !

 

I can't wait to see the build thread on it and watch the build progress. That PPI amp is exactly how I would proceed with a pair of those X's. I think you're really going to enjoy being introduced to the Fi brand. I spent over $600 for my pair of Q's about 4 years ago and they've been one of the best investments in audio I've made in a long time.

We'll need to start discussing the enclosure now that you've picked the sub you want to use. The first choice you need to make is how much room you're willing to give up to the enclosure. If you want it as small as possible then you'll need to consider a sealed enclosure. If you don't mind giving up some space then a ported enclosure would be a bit more fun as the subs will really come alive in a good ported enclosure. Don't worry any about the "SQ" of the subs in a ported enclosure either. As long as it's properly designed they'll sound amazing. On that front, once you know what direction you want to go and we work together to figure out what size to make then enclosure I'll help you with a design that will work great with the subs. The plans will include full specs, a cut sheet and 3D drawings so you can build it without any problems.

I'm glad I've been able to help out.

 

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I feel I need to ask what you plan on doing for wiring the amps and such. I figured it would bode well to suggest again that you look at KnuKonceptz for your amp wiring needs. While I would always suggest a person go with oxygen free copper (OFC) for their amp wiring, if the budget can't allow it and the application is compatible with the limitations copper clad aluminum (CCA) is acceptable in those instances. Considering the two amps you're looking to be using I think OFC would be the best way to go. The CCA 1/0AWG is generally good to 250A of current and with the BK1800 and the 300-4 you'll be pushing the limits of the wire at full tilt.

Electrically in your case, I would get all the equipment together and installed (not permanently necessarily, but enough so for testing) before worrying about the possible need for additional batteries or a high output alternator. You'll be looking at enough current draw that the need may be there, on the other hand you may not run it that hard often enough for it to be an issue. There's nothing wrong with going full out the first time through and getting those things. I did so in my Jimmy (second battery and an HO alternator) however I only did so because I had budgeted the money to do so and it keeps me from having to worry about it now or worry about spending the money in the future should I upgrade to more powerful equipment. If you weren't planning on those kinds of upgrades, and it didn't seem like that's the direction you planned on going from the start, then hooking everything up and monitoring the voltage at the amp with a remote voltage monitor like THIS one connected directly to the sub amp's power input terminals will tell you whether or not those kinds of upgrades are necessary. If the doesn't drop enough or often enough to really be any issue then there's no reason to worry about the upgrades. However, if it does then the first thing to do is put in a second battery and see how the voltage holds up then. If it's still a problem then you could need an HO alt. Doing the full size truck 145A alt upgrade can be pretty cheap to do anytime, audio system or not a lot of people recommend it.

I wanted to cover this base with you as well since you'll be looking at power levels that will put you in close enough to possibly needing to worry about electrical upgrades. Most people can get by with 1,000 or 1,200 watts of power on factory electrical in most cases, not always though. Anything higher than 1,200 and a person is REALLY pushing it on the factory charging system. I've seen people run 3,000 on factory electrical and I've seen 500 watts drop the hell out of the voltage. Every setup and vehicle is different.

 

Yea I had been thinking about which amp kit to use from KnuKoncepts but wasn't sure the difference in materials.

So I don't know much about the wiring either so some more questions to ask before this coming Friday when I make the first order. Was going to have it by today, but had to push it back a week. (had to move last second and uhauls and storage aren't cheep haha)

There will be 2 different amps, one the RF P300-4 and the PPI BK1800-1D, would I be using 2 different kits? (was assuming I would). Not sure how to word this....
Can I use this for the RF 4 Gauge Amplifier Installation Kit ? and then 0 GAUGE AMP POWER KIT for the PPI ? Another question in reference to the RFp300-4, when the specs say that it has a max 8 gauge input, is that referring to the power or signal cables? Wasn't sure..wanted to ask just in case I bought something that wouldn't fit. In addition to that, the PPI's max input is 1/0 awg(sweet 100 dolla kit haha)


Or would I be needing to find some bigger gauge amp kit for the RF ? Wasn't sure if they needed to be the same, or if the RF would be ok on the 4awg since it isnt running as much power through it.......but yea I will be getting OFC now so for future upgrades to either amp, I will already have GOOD installation equipment. So whatever you think would be best I will definitely consider !

Then to the upgrades to the electrical system. I had definitely looked into some of those things, and they were in the game plan, just never really mentioned them. There was surely a plan to upgrade to a H/O alt. Heck even Knu had a 160 amp alt for my blazer that I was looking into. Just wasn't sure if 160 was enough, too much, or just about what I needed, those questions were coming up :P. Also I already need to replace my battery and that will come very soon. Didn't know if two batteries were needed yet, that was a *remains to be seen* type of thing as you have stated. I will be doing some voltage monitoring on the first amp, and when I add the rest of everything !