Tranny leak out the bellhousing
 

Hey everyone. Well I can't believe I am saying this, but I can now add the transmission onto the list of components that are leaking. I was changing the oil almost 2 weeks ago and saw a little bit of red fluid on the bottom of the bellhousing coming from a hole between the engine and transmission. I am going to assume it is ATF since there isn't really much else it can be. However, I do not notice a drop on the dipstick. In fact, when I check it after driving it, it is just above the hot range. I only added a third of a quart after noticing that it was between the cold and hot ranges. This truck has a deep pan, so I am not sure that made any real difference. This leak went from just a seep to big drops on the bellhousing (See before and after photos) in less than 2 weeks. It is progressively getting worse. I am concerned about what is next. Is this the forward seal? I called many shops today and most would not even touch it, others were extremely expensive, some wanted to rebuild it, a few would do it but said that could be something else and one recommended I put Bar's Leaks in it. My concern is the bushing that is allegedly walking out that this seal is supposed to indicate is happening (which not one of the mechanics expressed concern about that). Any ideas? My options that I think I have are:

1. Live with the leak, top it off when needed
2. Put more Lucas in the transmission (there is already have a bottle in it)
3. Put Bar's Leaks in it and risk additional damage if/when it interacts with the fluid and the Lucas
4. Have the seal replaced and risk "additional damage"
5. Go on Craigslist, find a low mileage transmission and have that put in
6. Have this trans rebuilt even though it is driving just fine and the fluid hasn't changed color since I had the fluid changed last year (sometimes it shifts funny and jerks into reverse, but I think that is the TPS again).

Check your cooler lines, they're right above where you are seeing that leak. Passenger side just above where the dipstick connects to the trans housing. Might also be an idea to check the dipstick oring as well.

I replaced a front seal on a 2wd 4L65E and it wasnt too bad. But getting the trans in and out is a different story.

I will go check that out immediately and pray that you are right and that you saved me a transmission repair. Maybe it is since I have a cooler and one of the cooler lines was cut to connect it. Thanks

Here's hoping.

Well this sucks. The cooler lines are dry (other than the dried engine oil) and the dipstick tube has no red near it. Any other suggestions?

open up the inspection hole and get a flashlight in there, if you see trans fluid inside then it's a good bet it's the front seal.

How do I do that and how do I get it back on? I'll do that tomorrow.

Is there still a chance this is something that can be fixed without removing the transmission? If it is the front seal, what about this bushing? Could I just throw Lucas in there and hope that fixes it?

ehh.. you could try but dude,its time to drop the trans,and replace that seal.

I'm honestly not sure how to remove/replace that inspection cover. It should be a twist lock kind of deal by the looks of it but honestly i have no clue.

Yeah at this point, you've gotta pull the trans, if the leak is inside the bellhousing there's nothing can be done without it out of there. The reason is because you have to actually completely remove the torque convertor from the trans to replace the seal. It's a one piece seal that rides on the torque convertor where it goes into the trans pump.

My oil pan gasket / rear main seal on the engine is also leaking. I heard that the trans has to be removed to replace that also. Maybe I should see about getting that fixed during the same repair?

Oh yeah i would.

I am going to take the truck to a transmission shop tomorrow to get an inspection and estimate. However I have questions of what to expect if and when they do the repair.

1. Do they have to drop the pan at all? I got a drain plug.
2. Do they have to drain the transmission or transfer case? Do I have to get alot of fluid for this?
3. Can they find the probable cause for the leak by looking in the inspection hole after taking the cover off?
4. Would it be more cost effective to also get the rear seal done?

1. Not unless they replace the filter

2.yes to trans no to transfer case

3.probably. There's only 2 external seals in the bell housing. The pump to housing and the torque converter seal.

4. Yes. They will have to pull the trans to do the rear main. That being the case it's cheaper to have the trans pulled once than twice. Unless you're talking about the rear trans seal. In that case it might be slightly cheaper but that can be done with the trans in by just dropping the t case

TWO seals?! What if it is the torque converter?

The torque converter seal is the seal that I would assume is leaking. The other one is an o ring between the pump and trans housing. That one almost never fails. The torque converter itself shouldn't be leaking externally unless it got a hole in it which is very unlikely.

I took it to one tranny shop before. They say:

1. The trans needs to come out and there is definitely a slow front leak
2. Unknown what it actually is before they pull it.
3. There is no leak into the transfer case or out the rear (No overfill situation, they pulled the fill plug)
4. The trans works fine and while a rebuild is up to me, it isn't needed (or in my budget)
5. That my emergency brake doesn't work (Already knew that. They said I have a brake light on. Most mechanics try to move my truck without releasing the E-brake and now it doesn't work)
6. That I need a new front wheel bearing (based on the test drive)

1-5 are facts, #6 is debatable since I had both wheel bearings replaced in the spring (AGAIN!) and they were last checked November and were confirmed fine (I checked myself also). I am guessing the Pacemark Snowtrakker ST/2 tires are the cause since they make alot of noise which mimic a bad wheel bearing. I asked which side just as a test and after about 10 seconds he said passenger side. Any thoughts on this? They are snow tires that already make alot of noise, so could this be it? I got an alignment scheduled for Thursday.

By the way, I asked about details about the 4L60E since I got curious when I saw he had an S-10 with a blown torque converter on the lift and a Trailblazer outside that they had to push out of the garage to make room for another car and then later move my truck in. This business owner seems to know his stuff and I didn't have any repairs done yet. I don't normally judge a business this early, but I feel confident that if I have this done there that I can be sure it will be done right. He said:

1. They normally last 125k before anything major happens
2. The 3-4 clutch and sunshell are the most common problems. Sunshell failures depend on alot of factors including the driver. Some only last 60k. I guess my tranny cooler would make 3-4 last longer, but I didn't ask about that. Surprised he didn't freak out when I said I have a cooler because most mechanics do because I don't tow or plow (Pay no attention to the 7-way and 4-way sockets on the rear. Never used it for other than lights and not on a towed vehicle. Plus I have no brake controller.).
3. They are average and are not worse than other American trannys
4. The Lucas is garbage as with most additives because of seal problems, but he doesn't believe it is the cause of this seal problem.
5. I asked if any make it to 200k and he said yes, but that is because they have been in there before.
6. My seal leak could be anything from the front pump seal to the O-ring to a torque converter seal to a cracked torque converter.

Everything he has told you is true, I'd trust what he says. Most transmissions (in heavy duty applications) need to be rebuilt twice to every motor rebuild. That being said a gasoline engine SHOULD (although rarely does that translate to does) last 300k miles and a trans 150k. However there's exceptions to every rule in both directions.

I'd trust this guy and if his pricing is fair i would let him do the work. Will he warranty his repairs? (even if it's only a 30 day warranty it's something) He's not doing anything major so a long term warranty is out, however I'd be more inclined to believe he is as good a mechanic as he sounds like if he'd warranty for say 30 days against workmanship. That way if you leave and a week later you have the same seal he replaced leaking you at least have some butt coverage.

Yea I agree. 150k? I hope that this one lasts longer than that. It should with the Lucas (even though it is bad, but I hear mixed reviews on it), the cooler and deep pan. It runs cool.

He said 6 hours labor to drop the tranny. $450 plus parts (not much if it is just the seal) and fluid (with the deep pan, a case of it or I would have to bring my own). Said nothing about warranty. Other places said $600-1000. One said $1800 to rebuild. The one who wanted to rebuild said no warranty on the seal, 12 months/12k miles if I have it rebuilt. I am still looking at estimates near my middle-of-nowhere college near the capital region of upstate NY and some at home (downstate, Hudson Valley). Most of these businesses seem honest, reasonable and do quality work. I will NEVER go back to an AAMCO. Not only are they expensive, but considering the nearly 700 complaints on RipOff Report and F BBB ratings, that is even more reason not to. Other chain places or dealers are not much better. What I learned is that small town mechanics are the best, especially when they get to know you because then they might cut you a break from time to time and they don't try to cheat you. Plus keeping my money on local businesses helps them survive and doesn't support the dishonest activities and poor quality work of big businesses.

Oh I totally agree, I don't go to a mechanic often because i'm a DIY er but when i do i go to a guy up the road, I've been there a few times and my stepdad uses him alot. He's such a nice guy, they even sent me a handwritten christmas card that his whole family and daughters and everything signed. That means alot more to me than some computer generated card that dealers, etc. try to send out.

I'd go with the guy you got that estimate from, I have a good feelin about him LOL

Spoke with another tranny shop. $300 to pull the trans and he is concerned about this because he says that seal is not a common item to fail and the bushing might be the problem. So what is the big deal with this bushing? Obviously it can cause a leak, but how much damage can it actually cause?

If the bushing fails it can wear on the torque converter and cause a leak. But until the trans is out you won't know. The bushing is in farther than the seal and the torque converter rides on it as it engages the pump

Yea that is what this guy said. He wanted to replace the torque converter, seal and bushing. But he was leaning toward a rebuild or at least pulling the pump and valve body and sliding the internals out to inspect the clutches. Is this seal THAT big of a repair that the transmission has to be almost completely disassembled to replace that seal?! He showed me on a Ford tranny where the seal is. What are the steps to get that seal replaced and does it involve a near full disassembly?

The front seal is pull trans. Remove torque converter. Pry off seal. Tap new one in place. Reverse removal. The bushing is pretty deep in and requires removing the pump and disassembling it. If you go that far its only 10 minutes of teardown to inspect the rest of the guts.

So let me get this straight: If it is just the seal that is leaking, then it is just the seal that needs replacing. If the bushing is responsible for the leak, then the pump has to be pulled and taken apart to replace the bushing. The guts don't actually need to be pulled to replace the seal or bushing. Does this sound about right?

Correct. But with the pump out taking it the rest of the way apart to inspect everything makes sense because at that point you can simply reach in and pull everything but the output shaft and bearings out. To take the pump off ya have to pull the pan and filter. Valve body etc. then unbolt it from the housing and pull it out. Once all that's done you can simply slip the bands out reach in the front and pull all the years and clutch packs out.

Edit: I have a 4l60e at my shop torn down. Try to get some pics o it for you after I get my blazer put back together in the next few days so you can visually see what I mean.

Thanks. I am going to hope that the bushing is fine then and the seal failure is just because of the Lucas because I really would honestly hate to have to go through all that because of a minor leak. Up here in NY, repairs are expensive and very few shops are honest enough for me to trust them. In fact, one of them that I like is a chain based in Wilkes-Barre.

EDIT: Do they make a Redi-Sleeve for the torque converter so I don't have to have it replaced if the hub is scored so the seal rides properly? Or would that be a stupid idea in case a crack forms and the hub splits in half?

Thanks in advance for the photos.

It is too bad I don't live in Pennsylvania. I was thinking about it for after I am out of college. I have been in the Northeast part of it there a few times on Scout-related trips and not only is it a nice place, but the people are alot nicer and more trustworthy than people from my own state. Plus I notice other major differences like the number of police around. I drive on I-84, I-81 and I-380 for many miles on a few trips and I see exactly zero state troopers and no sneaky radar attacks. But once I cross back into NY, the first one I see is radaring me with KA 34.7 GHz and my detector picks it up before I even cross the state line. Then I see them once every few miles as usual. Also the gas prices and taxes are alot lower in PA. Maybe Albany should learn from what Harrisburg is doing right and maybe we wouldn't have all these problems in NY.

How big is the leak?
 

How many quarts of ATF are you adding a month to stay in the safe range?

Up until a week ago, zero. This trans was holding fluid with no problem before I discovered this seal. I added a third of a quart after I noticed the leak because I noticed the fluid was between the cold and hot ranges, but I assume that was because the trans wasn't hot. NEVER has it been low (or should I say low enough to cause a problem or below the cold range). Trans mechanic says the fluid is "right on the money".

2 mechanics so far confirmed the seal and a bad wheel bearing, so both are getting fixed soon. The wheel bearing is warranted as far as I know, so that should be simple.

PA isn't all it's cracked up to be, TRUST ME, Sure certain things are nicer than NY, but then again some things are the same and you just havent noticed. The difference between NY and PA is NY people will be assholes to your face, PA they'll be nice and pleasant to you to your face while stabbing you in the back and robbing you blind. Cops in PA????? Forget about it, they're the most corrupt force EVER, they will throw you in jail just for the sake of making money for the state, the entire court system here is so corrupt my own mother gave up elected office because she couldn't handle how far they would go.

My front wheel bears roared a tad when I got it at 102K miles and they were getting hot when I changed them out at 160K.

Old vehicles and small oil leaks are normal. I learned if I spent good $$$ to stop all drips then got in a wreck that the insurance company would call a total loss (does not take much with older stuff) that I got paid the same $$$ where it was all dry or was a leaker.

Based on my Blazer experience you will be putting in another transmission long before your small leak becomes a functional concern. All remanufactured transmissions come with new seals. :)

They lasted THAT long?! Wow. These Carquest bearings are junk. The first set lasted 13 months and now one of them AGAIN is roaring less than 6,000 miles later.

I know that old vehicles leak (I got an oil leak), but my concern is this seal that is leaking that can blow out. At the rate that it has gotten worse over the past 2 weeks (from very small amount of red to big drops), this concerns me. If I was going to get rid of it, I would forget it, but since I am planning on driving it for a while, I want to get it fixed before it is a major problem. At the rate that it has gotten bad, which seal could it be now?

Leaking seals can make a mess but not sure they lead to blow outs.

While we are swapping engines on the S10 5 speed we are going to replace rear main and front transmission seals just because when a dry clutch gets wet then it is no longer dry. :B

When I was much younger I worried about issues with my old cars and one day Dad said if you are going to buy used cars then then do NOT try to keep them in new condition but just go buy a new one if that is what you want. :)

On the Blazer wheel bearings they got loud enough to make talking difficult.

Of one has a hard surface drive an old piece of carpet to change out from time to time can help reduce the mess from leaks.

Really? Every tranny guy I spoke to was concerned that it could blow out. Probably thought I know nothing about cars because I am a college student.

Yea I know. I only fix what can cause problems. Stuff that is expensive to fix but will have little benefit like the rear main seal I won't fix. But this seal is different. I want to hold onto this truck as long as possible with minimal major repairs.

Yea if I am on the cell phone on a headset, I have to yell.

At my apartment off campus, it is a dirt/gravel driveway. At home it is a garage with a painted concrete floor and I already have a drip pan for the oil leak. Every once in a while I park where the leaks miss the pan, so when that happens I can use a degreaser and pressure washer.

Ok a little update. I went home for the holidays and had the truck checked by a mechanic who my grandfather has known for many many years. The leak suddenly disappeared after driving in the rain, but he pulled the inspection cover and FOUND NO FLUID and concluded the trans was not leaking at all. He also said that if it was the main seal, fluid would be all over the place. Hard to believe since there is red fluid on the garage floor and 3 other mechanics said it was leaking but didn't pull the cover. But he found where my engine oil leak is and it is the gasket on the fitting on the block where the remote oil cooler lines connect. That is getting fixed on Thursday. He also found play in the rear differential (something about the ring and pinion) but didn't say anything beyond that. Shocking since I just had the fluid changed and they found only a "normal" amount of particles on the magnet. I think my locker doesn't work since he was able to turn the wheel on one side and have the wheel on the other side turn in the opposite direction. Wow. So where could the leak be coming from? He said it can't be from overfilling it since it would come out the vent hose.

It could still be the dipstick tube O-ring, not sure about that. Maybe your pan gasket?

As for the G-80 locker, it acts as an open differential until the RPM of one wheel overcomes spring tension in the weights that engage the locker. So that being said it will act like an open diff when turning the wheel by hand.

As far as the play in the rear diff a good test is to put it up in the air and the trans in neutral. turn the driveshaft by hand. the driveshaft should not make more than 1/4 rotation without acting on the gears. More than that is "too much".

Glad to hear it isn't your rear main seal leaking.

Thanks. I guess I will have to recheck that. There isn't much there now. I was just under the truck to change the trans fluid (via the drain plug. No need to drop the pan since it was only 12-13k since the filter was changed. I have the filter done every 2 yrs/30k and the fluid every year/12-15k), front axle and transfer case fluids. I just had the rear axle fluid changed with a new cover, which I will need to paint before we get any snow so this one doesn't rust like the last one did.

Oh ok. I guess I never pushed it to the point where it would lock, so I can't really tell if it works for sure or not.

I don't think it turned that much. He had it in neutral when he checked it and rotated the driveshaft and wheels at different times.


By the way, I did notice something else with the trans. When I pulled the drain plug (which I upgraded to a magnetic plug even though the mechanic put the magnet in the pan from the other pan), I noticed alot of sludge on it (see photo). After I added what seemed to be about enough fluid (6-6.5 quarts of Valvoline MAXLIFE ATF) to start it (no way was I going to start it after only adding 3.5 qts as the book said, especially with the deep pan) and drive it, it seemed to drive actually a bit better at first and it would go into D or R very fast and firm (I could actually hear it shift in as if the trans put alot of energy into doing that). But then it would turn into shifting later and staying into gears longer (like until 3k RPM), but not slipping or making noises or anything like that. Now it was very very cold, so that might be it, but still. The only real different thing was that I halved the Lucas dose again to only 8 ounces this time (last year was half a quart (16 oz) and the year before was the full bottle (24oz)) since I am trying to gradually phase it out without completely withdrawing it and causing damage. I might have also overfilled it a bit, but it was the same way before. It is over the hot range by about the width of the range, but no fluid is pouring out the vent tube. Do I have a problem here?

I think I got 2 new problems.

1. It is clanking when I shift into reverse, but not always. Maybe after letting it sit for a few hours in the garage, but not when it was parked in the cold for 2 hours.

2. When I put my phone under the truck to record how far it rotates when I shift into gear (about 1/8 turn) and I don't know if this is a fluke, but when I started it while I shifted it into Neutral, the RPMs started to drop until it stalled. It started right back up and I was able to shift into D and R no problem. Only R clanked, D was silent. Both were firm. Maybe another bad TPS? It hasn't stalled like that again during the few trips I made after that. Maybe it was the car wash that caused that.

2. I'd say it was a fluke.

1. Mine clanks at random times too. depending on the load and how fast i'm going and how much throttle i'm giving it it clanks when it shifts sometimes. I attribute it to the combined play in the gears (trans, transfercase, diff)

Maybe it was.

It actually stopped doing it. Maybe the TPS commanded higher line pressure at the time and caused it to clank, but now it is softer.

Also, would changing the transmission fluid make the truck feel like it is bogged down? Since I changed the fluid, it seems to go into D and R fine and shift ranging from better to normal quality and normal to slightly late timing, but it seems the acceleration is alot slower for the throttle position. The gas is the same (I just put some Techron in it also) and nothing else was changed before last night when I put my throttle body spacer (gotta hate those studs. I stripped both ends of them and had to cut both of them down and could not use a washer on one side. Hopefully I didn't strip the threads in the holes in the intake manifold. I am buying an M6 threaded rod to replace both front studs.) and a new Spectre filter (2" more shallow than the other one) back in. That seemed to improve things a bit, but it seems slower to accelerate than before. It is most noticeable when accelerating onto a highway. Only other stuff worth mentioning is that when I pulled the throttle body, the inside looked a bit wet and there was some black stuff (I am guessing carbon), but I didn't smell gas.

that would be a great idea it would save you a lot of trouble later as well i would also recommend you check your wiring harness for the trans as well just to make sure nothing is burnt i had that problem with my blazer and it sucks trying to find it with the trans in place.