which amp?
#12
10-16-2013, 08:51 AM
I wouldn't knock the I10's just because they're lower powered subs. My sister's single 12" DCON (rated 300wrms also) fools most everyone who hears it. Most swear it's a pair of 12's and on more power than it's getting. Of course they're not experienced with this stuff but from what they're used to, well you get the picture.
We can't tell you how to spend your money, we can only lend our opinion on what we think we would do in the same situation. A pair of the IA I10's, a pair of Sundown E10's, SSA DCON 10's, etc. are all going to give you great performance in a good enclosure. That's where it gets a little sketchy for you since you're wanting to use the old enclosure. I did the calculations on that enclosure and each chamber is 1.118cuft GROSS with each port using .015cuft (~25sqin) of space inside, so basically 1.1cuft before sub displacement. That also makes the current tuning in the neighborhood of about 42hz. That tuning would increase with the displacement of the sub but with the little subs like you're looking at it would only be 1 or 2 hz at the most. That means either playing with the ports and tuning on this enclosure or making an attempt at sealing it up and getting the internal volume right to run the subs you choose sealed. Personally I think it screams "Build a custom enclosure". That makes the choice between a pair of tens or a single stronger 12 or 15 even tougher because for the price of the pair of I10's or E10's you can get a single Fi SSD 12 or 15 for a tad more, SSA GCON, IA Lethal Injection, etc., etc.
Considering space requirements you'll still be smaller with a pair of 10's in a good ported enclosure over a single 15 anyway, about the same either way between the 10's and a single 12.
It just makes the decision that much tougher, I know.
We can't tell you how to spend your money, we can only lend our opinion on what we think we would do in the same situation. A pair of the IA I10's, a pair of Sundown E10's, SSA DCON 10's, etc. are all going to give you great performance in a good enclosure. That's where it gets a little sketchy for you since you're wanting to use the old enclosure. I did the calculations on that enclosure and each chamber is 1.118cuft GROSS with each port using .015cuft (~25sqin) of space inside, so basically 1.1cuft before sub displacement. That also makes the current tuning in the neighborhood of about 42hz. That tuning would increase with the displacement of the sub but with the little subs like you're looking at it would only be 1 or 2 hz at the most. That means either playing with the ports and tuning on this enclosure or making an attempt at sealing it up and getting the internal volume right to run the subs you choose sealed. Personally I think it screams "Build a custom enclosure". That makes the choice between a pair of tens or a single stronger 12 or 15 even tougher because for the price of the pair of I10's or E10's you can get a single Fi SSD 12 or 15 for a tad more, SSA GCON, IA Lethal Injection, etc., etc.
Considering space requirements you'll still be smaller with a pair of 10's in a good ported enclosure over a single 15 anyway, about the same either way between the 10's and a single 12.
It just makes the decision that much tougher, I know.
Last edited by altoncustomtech; 10-16-2013 at 08:56 AM.
#14
10-16-2013, 09:41 AM
Eh, it depends on the sub, the enclosure specifications and what you're wanting it to do but a proper single 12 enclosure wouldn't be much larger than even the dual 10 that you have right now depending on all those things. Of course it could be monstrous too, it's hard to say with certainty without filling in some of the variables. On that note, if you really wanted to keep the enclosure down in size a really good and strong 10" may very well surprise you. I know the little I've been able to play with my XCON the last couple of days it is really surprising me for a single 10" sub with about 1500wrms. Of course the XCON is a bit out of the budget you're looking at, but I would imagine there's plenty of other subs out there that could fit the bill for a little closer to your budget.
#16
10-16-2013, 11:54 AM
You don't need a 15 to play lows. My 10" XCON was murdering lows the last two days (30-32hz) and I've still not gotten the PR's tuned completely yet. My sister's single 12" DCON plays down to the same frequencies with no problem and the Q's in my van do the same.
How low ANY subwoofer can play has 98% to do with the enclosure and environment it's playing in. The only difference the size makes is how loud it gets for the amount of power that is applied and that's because for the same given amount of movement of the cone a larger cone is going to move a larger volume of air and therefore can create more output. The old thinking of how a smaller sub is for higher/faster bass and a larger sub is for playing low bass is a complete and utter MYTH.
Pretty much everything about how a sub is going to perform is in the alignment and design of the enclosure. Of course the T/S parameters of the drivers determine what the best alignment/design is though there is some leeway. If a person knows and understands enclosure design they can change the alignment to suit different needs as long as they understand what the compromises those changes are going to make are and that the consequences of those changes are still within acceptable limits for the goal/application at hand.
Now, the majority of the time people simply go and do what they assume will work, what the manufacturer states as correct, or simply fly by the seat of their pants and hope it works. Those are the people who've started, spread and continue to spread these sorts of myths because they couldn't get the results they wanted or were told were possible.
I could grab a 6.5" sub and design an enclosure for it that would allow it to play down to 15hz. Would it be optimal? I'm absolutely certain it wouldn't be. The response as you went up in frequency would not be very good at all. Would it be as loud as a larger driver in a similar alignment? Absolutely not. The little sub simply can't move enough air to make it's output capability near that of a larger driver. The same goes for the comparison of one size to another all the way up the scale.
How low ANY subwoofer can play has 98% to do with the enclosure and environment it's playing in. The only difference the size makes is how loud it gets for the amount of power that is applied and that's because for the same given amount of movement of the cone a larger cone is going to move a larger volume of air and therefore can create more output. The old thinking of how a smaller sub is for higher/faster bass and a larger sub is for playing low bass is a complete and utter MYTH.
Pretty much everything about how a sub is going to perform is in the alignment and design of the enclosure. Of course the T/S parameters of the drivers determine what the best alignment/design is though there is some leeway. If a person knows and understands enclosure design they can change the alignment to suit different needs as long as they understand what the compromises those changes are going to make are and that the consequences of those changes are still within acceptable limits for the goal/application at hand.
Now, the majority of the time people simply go and do what they assume will work, what the manufacturer states as correct, or simply fly by the seat of their pants and hope it works. Those are the people who've started, spread and continue to spread these sorts of myths because they couldn't get the results they wanted or were told were possible.
I could grab a 6.5" sub and design an enclosure for it that would allow it to play down to 15hz. Would it be optimal? I'm absolutely certain it wouldn't be. The response as you went up in frequency would not be very good at all. Would it be as loud as a larger driver in a similar alignment? Absolutely not. The little sub simply can't move enough air to make it's output capability near that of a larger driver. The same goes for the comparison of one size to another all the way up the scale.
#17
10-16-2013, 03:48 PM
well you pretty much know what i want. and what my budget is for each. around $200 for a sub/subs 200-300 for a amp. And be able to keep acess to my spare tire in the rear. And i do have left over MDF from the other box i built (that alton designed) that could be enough for 1 12.
#19
10-16-2013, 09:10 PM
You don't need a 15 to play lows. My 10" XCON was murdering lows the last two days (30-32hz) and I've still not gotten the PR's tuned completely yet. My sister's single 12" DCON plays down to the same frequencies with no problem and the Q's in my van do the same.
How low ANY subwoofer can play has 98% to do with the enclosure and environment it's playing in. The only difference the size makes is how loud it gets for the amount of power that is applied and that's because for the same given amount of movement of the cone a larger cone is going to move a larger volume of air and therefore can create more output. The old thinking of how a smaller sub is for higher/faster bass and a larger sub is for playing low bass is a complete and utter MYTH.
Pretty much everything about how a sub is going to perform is in the alignment and design of the enclosure. Of course the T/S parameters of the drivers determine what the best alignment/design is though there is some leeway. If a person knows and understands enclosure design they can change the alignment to suit different needs as long as they understand what the compromises those changes are going to make are and that the consequences of those changes are still within acceptable limits for the goal/application at hand.
Now, the majority of the time people simply go and do what they assume will work, what the manufacturer states as correct, or simply fly by the seat of their pants and hope it works. Those are the people who've started, spread and continue to spread these sorts of myths because they couldn't get the results they wanted or were told were possible.
I could grab a 6.5" sub and design an enclosure for it that would allow it to play down to 15hz. Would it be optimal? I'm absolutely certain it wouldn't be. The response as you went up in frequency would not be very good at all. Would it be as loud as a larger driver in a similar alignment? Absolutely not. The little sub simply can't move enough air to make it's output capability near that of a larger driver. The same goes for the comparison of one size to another all the way up the scale.
How low ANY subwoofer can play has 98% to do with the enclosure and environment it's playing in. The only difference the size makes is how loud it gets for the amount of power that is applied and that's because for the same given amount of movement of the cone a larger cone is going to move a larger volume of air and therefore can create more output. The old thinking of how a smaller sub is for higher/faster bass and a larger sub is for playing low bass is a complete and utter MYTH.
Pretty much everything about how a sub is going to perform is in the alignment and design of the enclosure. Of course the T/S parameters of the drivers determine what the best alignment/design is though there is some leeway. If a person knows and understands enclosure design they can change the alignment to suit different needs as long as they understand what the compromises those changes are going to make are and that the consequences of those changes are still within acceptable limits for the goal/application at hand.
Now, the majority of the time people simply go and do what they assume will work, what the manufacturer states as correct, or simply fly by the seat of their pants and hope it works. Those are the people who've started, spread and continue to spread these sorts of myths because they couldn't get the results they wanted or were told were possible.
I could grab a 6.5" sub and design an enclosure for it that would allow it to play down to 15hz. Would it be optimal? I'm absolutely certain it wouldn't be. The response as you went up in frequency would not be very good at all. Would it be as loud as a larger driver in a similar alignment? Absolutely not. The little sub simply can't move enough air to make it's output capability near that of a larger driver. The same goes for the comparison of one size to another all the way up the scale.
