Not real sure, but I think you're agreeing with me!

 

the very top is what i was refering to when i said "no".

absolutely.

 

When our enemies have the STRONG desires to blow themselves you can not win with that kind of enemy. And since there are over a billion and a half Muslims, no amount of money in the U.S. will ever stop them. They dont' need nukes. they can do simple dirty bombs, biological and conventional bombings. they hav already proved how effective the is is in England (2005) remember? Spain, shortly thereafter.

We are NOT capable of stopping them over there. All we can do is fortify our borders which our "fearless leaders" promised to do after 911, but still have not done to any level of preparedness. I fear our brothers to the North will have a wall constructed like down in Mexico, or some other such non-sense, and that still won't do much if anything to deter someone who wants to get into this country.

They don't work on a monetary system either, or they would have turned in bin Laden for the cool easy $50 million reward by now. So there is no way they will "rat-out" there brothers. Especially when their whole families will be wiped out if they do so...

Even Timothy McVeigh could get away with it as dumb as he was. Dumb as in he drove away speeding on the interstate with incriminating evidence on the front seat from his OKC bombing incident. Our goobermunt might no have caught him if it weren't for that! They had no direct clues up until that point... The goobermunt might have taken years to catch him. But he would have been out of the country days before they caught up to his trail, which means he could have slipped thru the cracks...You can't stop anyone from doing anything.

And 'Dubbya' has pissed off those towel head so dang much they gonna be killing whitey for a long time!--LMFAO---WE should send Dubbya over there as a "peace offering". That might cool them off. Of course they might not even give 5 bucks for the POS slime ball. Oh Daddy watch me fly my jet around 'Bama, 'cause there might be some V.C. up in Muscle Scholls. yeah right, cutting a record w./ Skynyrd, no doubt!

That "stop e'm over there before they get over here" is just Orwellian think-speak that the goobermunt uses to gain public support for its rackateering, profiteering and egotistical petty projects to get re-elected. That is why the color bars were hardly EVER reduced to green for safe/low level threats remember? And who made up that crap w./ NO evidence whatsoever. Claimed it woudl panic us if we knew the intelligence, or give away our secrets to the enemy! Bull doo-doo...They say it enough so that we eventually believe it! I've been brain-washed for years. That is what is meant by being a "Good American". Buying into the 'Capitalist Propaganda' Da, Tavarish? (KGB talk) It's been that way since the beginning of time. Spin is Spin. Guess it all depends on whose spin we wish to believe

Just like when Reagan says, "vote for me and I'll get gov't. off your backs". yet he was running to be HEAD of the biggest goobermunt in the WORLD!!! See what I mean by brain-washing... "Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet"...another jingo commercial. How charming these jingoisms are eh? Sorry, folks, but we've been had again. (imo)

 

BlazeringSaddles...I've gotta admit, you came here with your guns loaded.

This, I will say, is a good point.

This... well.. I don't see how an act of treason from 1995 has any relevance to a foreign enemy in the 21st Century?

Again, I'm not quite sure how something a polictican said 20+ years ago, or even the views of those who held any major public office has relevance to this topic?

Man, I sure do enjoy a friendly sharing of ideas every once in a while.

BTW: Excuse the color coding, I'm not quite sure how to seperate single posts into multiple quotes

 

Ok I am not going to touch the "Muslim" side of this except to say this: Islam is the largest religion in the world # wise. Islam as a whole is NOT represented by the vast minority that do harm. I really hope for the sake of continuing this discussion here, we ALL can steer clear of pointing any fingers in any interpretabl way at a relgion.

As for the suicide bomber "wanting to blow themselves up", i believe you are mislead by the media here. While in Iraq (anyone that has played there please call me odown or back me up on this) maybe 1 in 6 suicide bomber threats was of a true martyr. the majority was children, the mentaly handicapped, and cripples. READ AS: Those who are easily EXPLOITED. Iraq is no different than any other country in that it has it's share of special needs people. Iraq it dirt poor though. So if i ruoll into you failing mental health community, and dontate some $ to your facility, in exchange for a couple handicapped folks, you wouldn't think twice. now I pack them full of explosives because in MY view and interpretation of things, this is the ONLY way someone of this mental capacity can get our desired after life is as a martry, i am actually doing them a favor by blowing them up. plus how much easier is it for a child/woman/handicapped person to get to troops? Tons... hence the threat.

These cats are clever. I looked down on them because I am an American and highly disdainful and painfuly ignorant of other cultures. They are geniuses in what they do to combat us there though. With out going into anything tht could potentially get me a spanking, i will say this; we have weaknesses. they find our weakness and exploit it. we adapt. they do the same. we have money and technology on our side. thats it.

if i roll into your drive way, stomp in your door and at gun point tell you about all the wonderful things natural gas could do to enrich your life, i would have your attention. if i then hang out on the couch for a week, i can further drive the points home. When i pack up and walk back to my car, all you are going to remeber is that i kicked in your door and stayed when i was not welcome. natural gas would be the furthest thing from your mind at that point. you would be ready to do what you had to do to keep me from returning.

it is the same way with democracy. We can not want something for them. if i want you to keep your blazer, but you are going to sell it, i can not want it bad enough to make you want it. people do not work that way.

as for not ratting out their buddies, again i have to disagree. i have had people turn in unexploded ordinace in Afghanistan for $5 and an MRE PER MINE. I have had people in iraq tell me where their neighbor had stashed munitions and homemade exploses in 55 gallon drums in their back yard. i have had people selling me falafel turn in a high value target to get at the $500 reward for information that proved correct. granted Bin laden is THE pinacle target, but no one really cares about that anymore either. Really, if you read the news paper and it said BL's body found in bombed out hole today. it would not stop the news of the 2 marines killed and 3 wounded during the 2 hour long shoot out outside of a government building in Kabul the next day from having the same impact on you. bin-laden is worth way more than 50 mil as a name and face that scares america. as a figure head for any number of causes/a galvanizing force, he may not be the traditional leader, but if you can rally behind an established fgure, it makes you, by proxy, more important

we could really beat this one into the ground but i want to leave you with my points:
1) stay away from Islam and Muslim talk please so we can keep this rolling and not (too) offensive to any one group
2) the suicide cats do not do it to be cool, other wise that crop would have burned themselves out early and we'd be sitting on the beach in Kuwait waiting to head up to the renevated place we heard so much about in Al Hilla near that busted up looking lion and what's left of the Zigguraut.
3) give me a drill, some wire, a batter, 2 2way radios, and a 155mm round and i can promise i will be pink mist in about 5 minutes. give these dudes the same and a 3rd grade educated dirt farmer can tear apart a tactical vehicle designed to stand up to a substantial beat down.
4) Decmocray does not taste good being rammed down your throat
5) blood maybe thicker than water, but so long as the money is green, some one wants it worse than they do your company, friend.

The way i see our presence there is this (IMPO). We are your bull's eye. it is much MUCH easier to go to a neighboring country to do some wicked s**T, then it is to fly/float over the American and do it on our ground. By being there, we give them a place to focus their anger and hate, while my kids sleep snuggly in bed wearing the Iraqi jammies i sent home. As long as there is a few guys to throw rocks at in the street, why the hell would you go to the mall and throw rocks at a giant crowd?


Read and pick apart. I enjoy the brain exercises here ***OMG LONG!!!***

 

What I meant about Regan saying his schpeel 20+ yrs. ago, is that it is one remark that sticks in a person's mind of how a govt.'s propaganda machine via our so-called "free" press spins even the most absurd statements into facts... I should hve been clearer and apologize for getting carried away OKvortec I should've drawn a corollary between Obama's saying we need 30,000 troops, which will undoubtedly lead us to needing another so many thousand and so on...to Reagan conning us w./ his lies too. Just like LBJ did in 'Nam as well, sending so many more thousand to die, then more, and more, and... for what?

Alos, the 1995 McVeigh incident was used to show how easy it is for even a Private in the Army to do what they did! Just trying to show that our enemies are all around us, and it is mainly due to what the gov't. has done to others over the years w/ their goon squads, and related police-state policies based on ulterior motives. If anyone thinks we do not live in a police state, just try adn organzie aany kind of protest rally and see how hard it is to do. And watch all the suits taking your pictures, tapping your phones, Following you in cars,-etc; This has been FULLY documented. Do internet searches and you can find all this and more. It's NOT paranoia. AND, it went on LONG before all this 911 jazz. And who thinks 911 was REALLY done by bin Laden. there is ALOT of evidence to the contrary. But the goobermunt immediately says we are "conspiracist theory whackos" to keep the truth from leaking out! Just like Tony Blair says anyone who thinks that his country (Great Britain), and the USA are over there for the oil, is a "conspiracist nut". THEN Pres. Bush SAID that is WHY we are over there on NATIONAL TV!!! You can't make this chit up folks! It's too STUPID to be made up!---LMFAO!!!---

Freedom does NOT come form the end of a gun as Mao uttered. As ABN said, you can't cram freedom down a person's throat. We could have become a wonderful nation after WWII as Gore Vidal said, but we turned into this greedy industrialized mechanized wasteland, (the last 4 words were mine---LOL!), instead of a more cultured and civilized land that even ancient Rome would have been jealous of! Before Rome got decadent near its end and did the same thing we're doing. Spreading itself too thin w./ too many wars, and special interst groups, and feminists taking over ***hiding from the women after that one eh gents?***

My brother works for U.S.A.I.D. and has been in Pakistan, and Afghanistan several times each the past couple of years trying to rebuild and clean up the messes there. He also verifies what the gent said about makin the old and weak into suicide bombers. He mentions how some even used their GRANDMOTHERS as suicide bombers! You're right amigo, we will NEVER understand those clowns! Who would want to?

Also, a friend who is ex-CIA says it is unwinnable there. He spent time looking for other thugs back when the Russians were fighting our boy bin Laden, who we ended our support for, then "CUT and RUN" on at the time. Giving him millions, then leaving his people to get destroyed by the might of 'Mother Russia' Go Congress, Senate, and the Oval office dude! you Ship of Fools you!

Reagan cut and run in Lebanon. He said "we will never leave until we bring those to justice" (who drove a truck of explosives into the embassy killing over 240 Marines). TWO WEEKS later he pulls our military out of there, 'cause Casper Weinberger says it ain't a good idea to be in harm's way (paraphrasing here of course). Just like Dubbya's daddy told him NOT to go into Iraq as it would make our guys sitting ducks for every sick bastard w./ a grudge there! But yet America calls Reagan a great American more popular in a recent poll than even George Washington. (WTF?), a "B" movie actor, who was a Democrat, then became a puppet for the rich party (Republicans). It's all hype peeps, that is what I'm getting at... And Dubbya was an ALCOHOLIC, You do NOT elect an alcoholic to even be mayor of a small town, let alone a SUPER--POWER. How big of America to forgive him! How retarded as well!

My father would roll over in his grave to see what he fought for in WWII as a Marine Corps hero! (He landed on Iwo, and went throughout the South Pacific theater then). People need to wake the ferk up. Start READING. Buy REAL newspapers, instead of this mainstream FLUFF that passes for news now, which is owned by right-wing BIG money interests. Ain't nuthin' "Fair and Balanced" except the networks HUGE profits my friends!!! *wink*

In Waziristan, (where deuschbag Osama is hiding in caves) they will NOT sell out bin Laden. We (my buddies and I), can't go in there 'cause we will stand out like "Polar Bears" as one op. explained to my ignorant gun-ho and greedy ****! hey I'll admit it , I'm a stinking capitalist pig! Who don't want $25 million. {i.e;Would have to split the $50 million w./ my partner} , heeee, heeee, heeee... Maybe I'll send him some Hickory Farms goodies for Christmas, then when he answers the door, WHAMO!!!

 

Vietnam was not a popular war and neither was Korea. I find it ironic that in both of those wars we were actually able to win them and we were winning untill congress and politics got involved. If you're going to fight then fight to win.

What I meant about Regan saying his schpeel 20+ yrs. ago, is that it is one remark that sticks in a person's mind of how a govt.'s propaganda machine via our so-called "free" press spins even the most absurd statements into facts...

So you're refering to the liberal press corps that are backing BHO? Or perhaps the whole 'Global Warming' facade that has been proven not to be manmade?

 

I'm ex-army but was a desk jockey. Spent some time in the Philippians and Thailand so I may not be qualified to form an opinion, but it seems to me that this is the best way to go about the war issue.

I've always thought we should be focusing on Afghanistan and have beat my head against the wall wondering why we were ignoring it after doing so well the first year or so. This just seems more logical than what we were doing in Iraq.

We are now focusing on the guy punching us than his big mouthed brother (in so many words).

My $0.02

 

Steve, your opinion counts as much as anyone else. Uniform or no, going toe-to-toe with the *****/commies/jihadists, etc. doesnt make your opinion more or less right-er.

AGAIN this is MPO, but i agree 100% with your take on the 'stan. The first push met with minimal resistance, the people freely welcomed us, and what we brought to the table. Being "freed" of there situation might be over-glamorizing it a bit, but they were in bad shape when we came to town... Anyway, we had a good foot hold, we had a good system going, we had support. And all of it was flushed away for a run at one of the big kids on the block out there. Iraq had a wicked SOb running the country, but he had been a wicked SOB and had been running the show over there for quite a while....
There are a lot of bad people in this world, and a a number of truely bad (in a morale sense) leaders grinding their countries further into the red... but we do not control the world and it is not our place to try.
So i agree

-no longer in response to steve-
Dont get me wrong, every time we **** a country off, or steal it's girlfriend, we are creating more and more job security for myself. But when I'm old and no longer useful to my country (age 38, or older if i choose to push the issue for a bit) and honestly stare down the barrel of retiring and starting a real life in the real world, WTF will be left if we burn ourselves out early on?


In this situation (2 aging 'wars') as a whole, there is VERY little to see as a desirable outcome, and even less "good" that can come of it. At best, we stablize A country in the area. They do not get over-thrown or attacked by a neighbor, and instead, said neighbor takes note of how good being stable looks. On their own, the other countries work toward that goal for themselves. And we all live happily ever after.
That has a very VERY small chance of happening.

On the opposite end of the spectrum the only way to ensure total victory and that this never happens again (from the same area anyway) can be summed up in one quote - "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ellen Ripley, Aliens

See neither of those outcomes are really an option. This whole thing is an exercise in futility. I am of the opinion that, like my own neighbors, if you want to have 31 cats, so long as they don't sh*t in my yard, i'm cool. As soon as they post up on the grass and start banging out a duece, dont cry to me when they catch the business end of a Remington Subsonic .22 round. They are yours, keep them that wya please.

Same goes for your crack pots. Our nut cases aren't blowing up your abortion clinics. So keep your's off our planes. Deal? We can all play nice, but we'll do it in our respective yards, thank you very much. Want to borrow 2 eggs? Sure! Need to stash a few crazies with murderous intent? Kindly take a step back a litteraly F yourself. I think that is a fair and ballanced foreign policy.
WTF do i know? I barely made it out of highschool and didn't want the embarassment of being turned away by a community college. I'll leave the policies to elected officials to bicker over, and i'll just post my discontent over it on a car forum.

 

ABN, I was a high school drop-out, so therefore at one time I did NOT make it out of high school. It was a "cool thing to do" in the era I grew up in, and I didn't want to hang around and let so called "authority figures" mold me into being a good wittle proletaritat who they could send off to fight the battles which they were too old and/or chicken s**t to fight themselves as always seems to be the case sad to say!

However I went back and got my diploma, so I could go onto college. I've since 'racked up alot of miles' in academia because I wanted to learn. That is what TRUE education is all about. Would I recommend acadmia to such highly intelligent and worldly people like yourself. hard to say., College does basically TWO important things, #1 it teaches you how to think, and #2 it teaches you how to "look things up" (i.e.; research!) I'm not sure having "served" in a military and academic environment that either is worth their salt. I will say that it is never too late to learn. It doesn't have to be done in college. MANY,MANY folks have gone it alone and STILL learned more than most of us ever will. It's all up to the individual I reckon. If someone bombs us and we bomb them back, who wins!? Anybody really? If you IGNORE them, then you are a bigger person. they will do what they want irregardless of what we do in retalitation. That's just "human nature 101"

I do not feel now in hind-sight that war will ever solve much of anything, if anything at all. It leaves young man "angry, mean and bitter" to quote a line out of that old Motown hit "WAR... What is it Good For, Absolutely NOTHING, HUH, GOOD GOD"... If anyone wonders which on I'm referring to, watch the Jackie Chan, Chris Rock movie, forget the name, but is easily findable on the 'net or in a video store!