95 Dies when hot and then won't start!
You really, really need to use an ohm meter for these tests. I'll give a check to determine whether your "continuity checker" is useful or not in a bit. First I want to address this:
This is not correct. I wouldn't connect a "continuity checker" or even an ohm meter in that way. Ohm meters and continuity checkers run a current limited, low voltage signal through the wires /circuits you are testing. The ohm meter will read the DC resistance of the circuit between the probes. A "continuity checker" will give you a signal (light or tone) when the resistance is below some threshold.
When you are connecting to the pink wire(s) and ground, you're trying to power all circuits on the pink wires (all "hot in run, bulb test or start" circuitry in the entire vehicle) with the low voltage, hopefully current limited source from the battery in your continuity checker. It sees that total load as "continuity." There would more likely be something wrong if it didn't.
Check your continuity checker to see if it's sensitive enough to be useful for this job. Disconnect the low voltage connector on the coil and check for continuity in the following 6 connections
Terminal A (white wire) on the coil to ground (coil mounting bolt on the manifold is a good test point)? Continuity?
Terminal B (pink wire) on the coil to ground? Continuity?
Terminal A on the coil to Terminal B on the coil? Continuity?
Terminal A (white wire) on the coil harness connector to terminal D (pink wire next to the black wire) on the Ignition Control Module harness connector? Continuity?
Terminal B (pink wire) on the coil harness connector to terminal A (pink wire next to the white wire) on the Ignition Control Module harness connector? Continuity?
With coil plugged in, Ignition Control Module disconnected, between the two pink wires (terminal A and Terminal D) on the ignition control module harness connector? Continuity?
If you get your hands on an Ohm meter, knowing the actual DC resistance of all those connections would help a lot.
When you are connecting to the pink wire(s) and ground, you're trying to power all circuits on the pink wires (all "hot in run, bulb test or start" circuitry in the entire vehicle) with the low voltage, hopefully current limited source from the battery in your continuity checker. It sees that total load as "continuity." There would more likely be something wrong if it didn't.
Check your continuity checker to see if it's sensitive enough to be useful for this job. Disconnect the low voltage connector on the coil and check for continuity in the following 6 connections
Terminal A (white wire) on the coil to ground (coil mounting bolt on the manifold is a good test point)? Continuity?
Terminal B (pink wire) on the coil to ground? Continuity?
Terminal A on the coil to Terminal B on the coil? Continuity?
Terminal A (white wire) on the coil harness connector to terminal D (pink wire next to the black wire) on the Ignition Control Module harness connector? Continuity?
Terminal B (pink wire) on the coil harness connector to terminal A (pink wire next to the white wire) on the Ignition Control Module harness connector? Continuity?
With coil plugged in, Ignition Control Module disconnected, between the two pink wires (terminal A and Terminal D) on the ignition control module harness connector? Continuity?
If you get your hands on an Ohm meter, knowing the actual DC resistance of all those connections would help a lot.
I was able to get a niod light tester. I hooked it up to the fuel injector plug, and there is no signal to the light when I turn the car over. What in the ignition circuit would cause no signal to the fuel injector??
Could it be the Crankshaft Position Sensor??
Also is there a way to hookup a remote starter switch without hooking directly to the starter?
The conections at the starter are to hard to get to!
Could it be the Crankshaft Position Sensor??
Also is there a way to hookup a remote starter switch without hooking directly to the starter?
The conections at the starter are to hard to get to!
So, I checked my fuse box, and removed the #10 fuse for the ECM. IC. and hooked my test light up to it. With the key on it woulld light up real bright for a few seconds, and then dim to where you could barely see it, but it was still lit. I checked it a few times and noticed it was bright when the fuel pump relay was buzzing to prime the pump!
Does this mean the short is somewhere in the fuel pump relay wiring, or does it intersect with the IC. wiring circuit somewhere??
Does it hurt to connect to the red wire to activate the fuel pump and leave it on for a few minutes so I can see the test light glow while I search for the short???
Does this mean the short is somewhere in the fuel pump relay wiring, or does it intersect with the IC. wiring circuit somewhere??
Does it hurt to connect to the red wire to activate the fuel pump and leave it on for a few minutes so I can see the test light glow while I search for the short???
What exactly did you do? Do you still have the "continuity checker?" Did you do the 6 continuity checks I asked for before? What were the results? Did I miss something?
If you put a light bulb in place of the ECM fuse, and that was your "test" then all you proved with that test is that more current flows through that fuse/bulb (the bulb was brighter) when the fuel pump runs for the prime cycle than after it shuts off. That's normal.
Using a bulb in place of a fuse also greatly reduces the voltage to the circuit. The more current flows, the brighter the bulb, but the lower the voltage is that gets through the bulb. The voltage drop across the bulb increases with increased current and increased brightness. That voltage drop can be bad for the circuits you are "testing" by that method.
Have you checked for spark yet? Your DTC's are indicating an ignition problem. The ignition problem they point to could result in no spark. Have you checked for spark yet? Maybe the DTCs are correct and you have an ignition problem. I'd start checking and testing there.
If you pull the spark plug from cylinder #1 and set it out on some grounded metal with the plug wire still attached, is there a spark at that plug when you crank it? If there's no spark, thats your problem.
Once you find that you have no spark, please answer the questions about the continuity checks I posted before. These tests, please:
Again, you REALLY NEED an Ohm meter to diagnose the coil, not just a "continuity checker." But those tests will tell whether that "continuity checker" you were using is even useful for any kind of diagnosis on this problem.
One more thing. If the computer senses an ignition problem (the P1351 thing), it probably won't pulse the injector(s). The PCM won't want to risk dumping raw fuel into the catalyst when it's not certain there's spark.
If you put a light bulb in place of the ECM fuse, and that was your "test" then all you proved with that test is that more current flows through that fuse/bulb (the bulb was brighter) when the fuel pump runs for the prime cycle than after it shuts off. That's normal.
Using a bulb in place of a fuse also greatly reduces the voltage to the circuit. The more current flows, the brighter the bulb, but the lower the voltage is that gets through the bulb. The voltage drop across the bulb increases with increased current and increased brightness. That voltage drop can be bad for the circuits you are "testing" by that method.
Have you checked for spark yet? Your DTC's are indicating an ignition problem. The ignition problem they point to could result in no spark. Have you checked for spark yet? Maybe the DTCs are correct and you have an ignition problem. I'd start checking and testing there.
If you pull the spark plug from cylinder #1 and set it out on some grounded metal with the plug wire still attached, is there a spark at that plug when you crank it? If there's no spark, thats your problem.
Once you find that you have no spark, please answer the questions about the continuity checks I posted before. These tests, please:
Check your continuity checker to see if it's sensitive enough to be useful for this job. Disconnect the low voltage connector on the coil and check for continuity in the following 6 connections
Terminal A (white wire) on the coil to ground (coil mounting bolt on the manifold is a good test point)? Continuity?
Terminal B (pink wire) on the coil to ground? Continuity?
Terminal A on the coil to Terminal B on the coil? Continuity?
Terminal A (white wire) on the coil harness connector to terminal D (pink wire next to the black wire) on the Ignition Control Module harness connector? Continuity?
Terminal B (pink wire) on the coil harness connector to terminal A (pink wire next to the white wire) on the Ignition Control Module harness connector? Continuity?
With coil plugged in, Ignition Control Module disconnected, between the two pink wires (terminal A and Terminal D) on the ignition control module harness connector? Continuity?
Terminal A (white wire) on the coil to ground (coil mounting bolt on the manifold is a good test point)? Continuity?
Terminal B (pink wire) on the coil to ground? Continuity?
Terminal A on the coil to Terminal B on the coil? Continuity?
Terminal A (white wire) on the coil harness connector to terminal D (pink wire next to the black wire) on the Ignition Control Module harness connector? Continuity?
Terminal B (pink wire) on the coil harness connector to terminal A (pink wire next to the white wire) on the Ignition Control Module harness connector? Continuity?
With coil plugged in, Ignition Control Module disconnected, between the two pink wires (terminal A and Terminal D) on the ignition control module harness connector? Continuity?
One more thing. If the computer senses an ignition problem (the P1351 thing), it probably won't pulse the injector(s). The PCM won't want to risk dumping raw fuel into the catalyst when it's not certain there's spark.
Last edited by Racer_X; Jul 23, 2016 at 12:35 PM.
Things I've replaced so far.
Battery and Starter
Spider, Nut Kit, Eletrical Conector to spider, and Fuel filter.
Coil.
Camshaft sensor. ( in distribitor )
Ignition Control Module.
Cap, Rotor, Wires, and Plugs ( all AC Dleco )
Checked the fule pump 10 ways to Sunday!! Key on, 60lbs, key off 55lbs held over 50lbs for more then 10 minutes. At filter, key on 80lbs, held over 65 lbs for 10 minutges.
Checked spark at plug, spark was good, but it was yellow not blue. (but should still try to fire up)
I have doubled and tripled check all my work, and all the conections!! Including the coil!! It seems to be a short somewhere! The only thing I haven't replaced is the Crankshaft Position Sensor. Can that cause the problem I'm having?
As far as using my test light in place of the fuse, my Chiltons book suggests that I use this method to find out if there is a short in the circuit! It states that there should be no voltage present, and if the light goes on, there is a short to ground somewhere!!
Also, the fuel pump relay is not on that circuit, so the short must be crossing over!
Fuel pump relay is on fuse 9, ECM ign control is on fuse 10. where I found the short.
Battery and Starter
Spider, Nut Kit, Eletrical Conector to spider, and Fuel filter.
Coil.
Camshaft sensor. ( in distribitor )
Ignition Control Module.
Cap, Rotor, Wires, and Plugs ( all AC Dleco )
Checked the fule pump 10 ways to Sunday!! Key on, 60lbs, key off 55lbs held over 50lbs for more then 10 minutes. At filter, key on 80lbs, held over 65 lbs for 10 minutges.
Checked spark at plug, spark was good, but it was yellow not blue. (but should still try to fire up)
I have doubled and tripled check all my work, and all the conections!! Including the coil!! It seems to be a short somewhere! The only thing I haven't replaced is the Crankshaft Position Sensor. Can that cause the problem I'm having?
As far as using my test light in place of the fuse, my Chiltons book suggests that I use this method to find out if there is a short in the circuit! It states that there should be no voltage present, and if the light goes on, there is a short to ground somewhere!!
Also, the fuel pump relay is not on that circuit, so the short must be crossing over!
Fuel pump relay is on fuse 9, ECM ign control is on fuse 10. where I found the short.
Last edited by shleprock; Jul 25, 2016 at 06:03 PM.
If you want to see what happens with a failed crank position sensor, and what code that generates, get your scan tool, clear all the codes. Then disconnect the harness connector for the crank position sensor and try to start it. You'll get a "Service Engine Soon" light and a code. Check with the code reader. If you get the P1351 from that test, then the crank position sensor might be causing the problem. If the P1351 isn't present with the crank position sensor disconnected, but some other DTC related to CKP is present, then reconnect the crank sensor and clear the codes and try diagnosing and repairing the P1351 DTC when it returns.
Addressing the first sentence, that you've "double and triple checked" all your work, I can say this. You've never answered my questions about the DC resistance of your coil. Even when I found out you only had a "continuity checker," I asked for several measurements with that and you haven't ever answered my questions for those results.
BTW, have you checked for spark when it's in the "no start" condition? You mentioned it was weak way back when it was still running and leaving you stranded when it died on the road. I haven't seen that you've ever checked it again. The symptoms changed, it's time to double check that.
In my experience, DTC "P1351" can be caused by a bad coil, a bad ignition control module, a bad ground at the ignition control module, or a bad PCM. If you're sure that your module, coil and ground wires are all good, that only leaves the PCM.
I won't call a part "good" until I measure it and test it and find it to be operating within specifications. That's why I keep asking for measurements of the coil and related wiring. When do you plan to share your results from those tests?
If a "new coil" and "new module" are "good enough" for you, and you just have to replace some other part, you could skip right to the PCM. But if your "new coil" is defective, or your ground wire at the ICM has high resistance and is insufficient, a new/reman/used and reprogrammed to your VIN PCM won't fix that. Also, I almost certain that your PCM has to be programmed to your VIN, so you can't just pick one up at a parts yard and swap it in.
Let me start with:
Yes I'm still getting spark at the plugs!
I'm not getting a signal to the injector conection!
I had the New ICM and the New coil (AC Delco) Checked at Auto Zone they ran the ICM check 15 times to make sure it was really hot! Both past spects!
I hope that answers your question about the coil.
I don't have the scan tool anymore, My brother works as a driver for a auto parts store and borrowed it from a shop on his route. I'll have to see if he could get it again.
Using my test light ,it shows I have continuity from the ICM conector to ground. I'll try to get my hands on a Ohm metter. How do you check the resistance on the ground wire at the ICM conector?
Using my test light at the fuse box on the side of the dash (drivers side), With key ON, I found shorts in fuses # 4, 5, 9, and 10. Could shorts in these wires cause the problem I'm having?
I know you said, with key on, that I should have voltage at the fuses, but thats not what my Chiltons book says. To confirm this, I checked the radio fuse. With key ON, and the radio playing, the test light did not light up! When I remove one test lead from the fuse conection, the radio lost power, and regained power when I reconected it! At no time did the test light light up!! This shows that there is no voltage present in the fuse block, unless there is a short in that circuit somewhere!
Racer_X I really appreciate your time and expertice, i'm sure we'll figure this out!
Yes I'm still getting spark at the plugs!
I'm not getting a signal to the injector conection!
I had the New ICM and the New coil (AC Delco) Checked at Auto Zone they ran the ICM check 15 times to make sure it was really hot! Both past spects!
I hope that answers your question about the coil.
I don't have the scan tool anymore, My brother works as a driver for a auto parts store and borrowed it from a shop on his route. I'll have to see if he could get it again.
Using my test light ,it shows I have continuity from the ICM conector to ground. I'll try to get my hands on a Ohm metter. How do you check the resistance on the ground wire at the ICM conector?
Using my test light at the fuse box on the side of the dash (drivers side), With key ON, I found shorts in fuses # 4, 5, 9, and 10. Could shorts in these wires cause the problem I'm having?
I know you said, with key on, that I should have voltage at the fuses, but thats not what my Chiltons book says. To confirm this, I checked the radio fuse. With key ON, and the radio playing, the test light did not light up! When I remove one test lead from the fuse conection, the radio lost power, and regained power when I reconected it! At no time did the test light light up!! This shows that there is no voltage present in the fuse block, unless there is a short in that circuit somewhere!
Racer_X I really appreciate your time and expertice, i'm sure we'll figure this out!
Again, I'm assuming you have the two wire "Maxi Injector" with a pink wire and a dark blue wire on that connector. The pink wire should have +12V power from fuse #10. The pink wire goes to the ECM, I think it's Pin 3 on Connector 2 by the wiring diagram I have. The ECM provides ground to pulse the injectors.
Tests for the injector:
- Make sure there's power on the pink wire
- Check the resistance of the injector. It should be 1.37 to 1.77 ohms.
- Check the wire back to the PCM
- To find signal, either use a noid light, or connect a multimeter with a "duty cycle" setting. The signal there is pulse width modulated. Higher duty cycle = more fuel.
You should also check all the ground pins on the PCM connectors. A bad ground there can cause all the assorted symptoms you are experiencing.
Using my test light at the fuse box on the side of the dash (drivers side), With key ON, I found shorts in fuses # 4, 5, 9, and 10. Could shorts in these wires cause the problem I'm having?
I know you said, with key on, that I should have voltage at the fuses, but thats not what my Chiltons book says. To confirm this, I checked the radio fuse. With key ON, and the radio playing, the test light did not light up! When I remove one test lead from the fuse conection, the radio lost power, and regained power when I reconected it! At no time did the test light light up!! This shows that there is no voltage present in the fuse block, unless there is a short in that circuit somewhere!
Racer_X I really appreciate your time and expertice, i'm sure we'll figure this out!
I know you said, with key on, that I should have voltage at the fuses, but thats not what my Chiltons book says. To confirm this, I checked the radio fuse. With key ON, and the radio playing, the test light did not light up! When I remove one test lead from the fuse conection, the radio lost power, and regained power when I reconected it! At no time did the test light light up!! This shows that there is no voltage present in the fuse block, unless there is a short in that circuit somewhere!
Racer_X I really appreciate your time and expertice, i'm sure we'll figure this out!
Short answer. Use the highest wattage 12V light bulb you have available. First, connect it to power and ground directly. Note how bright the bulb is at full power. That's what a short circuit to ground will look like. Anything less bright is current flowing through the bulb, but not a "short circuit."
Details: Some current flow, and some glowing of the filament is normal. A 55W headlight bulb will glow quite a bit in place of a 20A fuse if that circuit draws 7 amps in normal operation. It won't be "full power" brightness, but it won't be dark either. A 7 or 12 watt bulb in that position will be almost full brightness. That could be normal, for example, with the fuel pump drawing current through the bulb. Lower wattage bulbs will glow brighter (and drop more voltage) at even lower current flows.
Light bulbs are basically a wire for very low currents. As the current increases, the filament heats up. When it begins to glow, the resistance of the filament begins to increase, and the voltage drop across the bulb increases as well. The more current that flows, the brighter the filament glows, and the higher the resistance gets and the more the voltage drops across the bulb. When you get to "full power" current, the full 12 volts will drop across the bulb, and there will be almost no voltage, but a lot of current flowing through the circuit beyond the bulb.
Using them in place of a fuse makes them almost like a circuit breaker/warning light, provided that "normal current flow" doesn't heat the filament much and cause too much voltage drop. So, if it doesn't look as bright as "full power," connected directly to the battery, there's no "short circuit." How bright "normal" should be for any given fuse depends on normal current draw during normal operation.
Thanks Raser_X. Thats a lot of info! I think you're right about the fuses! I checked them again and with key ON, 4, 9, and 10, light up the test light, but not the headlight, and #5 lights up the headlight, but not to full brightness!
I'm really starting to think it could be my CKPS. Couldn't hurt to change it! I'll do all those test you sugested above first!
Not sure when I'll be able to get to that, my dads car is having an overheating problem, and I have to fix that first! Hopefully it will be an easy fix!!!
When I get those test done, I'll post my results for you.
I'm really starting to think it could be my CKPS. Couldn't hurt to change it! I'll do all those test you sugested above first!
Not sure when I'll be able to get to that, my dads car is having an overheating problem, and I have to fix that first! Hopefully it will be an easy fix!!!
When I get those test done, I'll post my results for you.
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