97 Rocker Valve Adjustment
#91
06-23-2017, 02:54 AM
This sounds to me as if it would need a good mechanic pull the engine and take it apart.
You may be in for a very, very steep learning curve on the innards of an internal combustion engine.
Despite knowing my fair share of stuff about the S10 and having taken my first 2-stroke apart in 1978 I would not want to advance more advice as to look for the causes.
Have to re-read the thread - I still do not like the original analysis of causes.
You may be in for a very, very steep learning curve on the innards of an internal combustion engine.
Despite knowing my fair share of stuff about the S10 and having taken my first 2-stroke apart in 1978 I would not want to advance more advice as to look for the causes.
Have to re-read the thread - I still do not like the original analysis of causes.
#92
06-23-2017, 03:51 AM
Hmm - I think back to field "0" on this one.
The primary cause of the breakdown has still not been identified. After re-reading I do not like:
- Oil in the water! (Pics with the head off, shows the beige sludge on the head gasket)
- Do you still have the replaced blown head gasket?
- I do not like the corrosion on all the internals like the balance shaft (could indicate water in the oil)
- I do not like the fact that you still have no clue as to why the head gasket went
- Not liking the compression test. Have you re-done that?
- I don't like the over-torque explanation for valves to stay open (40 lbs are not enough to seriously damage a thread of 3/8" (10 mm) in a way that the valves stay open. (IMHO)
- You said that after pulling the pan the bearings were o.k. How did you determine that? Have you pulled the caps on #2 and #5 rods? How did you re-tighten them? (This is a big no-no without torque wrench)
What I would do: (And take a lot of pics and vids if you can)
As the vehicle sits there and you cannot use it in this condition without the risk of further damage and if you are willing to spend more time on it, I would suggest:
Go to the library and pull a copy of some of the books like "Rebuilding the CHevy small block". Excellent general guidance material. Try to grab a hold of a printout of the service manual pages on valvetrain and stud replacement for your particular vehicle. Maybe a friend or helpful CHEVY dealer? Sometimes rockauto has the full service manuals.
Preliminary
- Pull all the plugs (in order to turn it by hand)
- Take the top off again (Injection etc)
- Take the valve covers off
- Have a thorough look at the oil the engine should have squirted up from running it.
- Spin engine by hand and check all valves
- Use a straight edge on the tip of the rockers or the outside edge of the valve spring retainers. (Archaic method to check if they all move about the same - may need shifts left and right on the rim of the heads to adjust.)
- Check all the pistons tops for indentations, discoloration. Are there spots without any soot? Like washed away?
- When turning by hand observe if there is any resistance and listen for any noise in the valvetrain
- Have somebody turn the engine by hand and observe all the pistons. Any jerky movement of the piston? Rattle?
- Shine a light down every bore and check the cylinder walls all around. Scratches? Anything unusual for a medium shiny metal surface?
You have the heads out. If you can disassemble them I would take them apart. Mark all the single parts in order to be able to put them back into the original location. Nail polish is a nice marker. Mark the head as left and right (In or outside is obvious by the ports).
Careful when taking a valve assembly apart! Let a pro do that and use pro tools! Valvesprings store a huge amount of energy and if improperly handled can cause injury!
You may be lucky and find a friendly garage or machine shop. With pro tools that is a 20 minute job on both heads to pull the valves. Should not cost more than 20$.
- Have a careful look at the gasket surface. Every square inch. You want to check for cracks, discoloration, soot in radial deposits away from the combustion chamber. Check between the valve seats and around the spark plug boss.
- Especially carefully check where the original head-gasket had blown out
- Do the same on the block
- Clean the head gasket surface as good as you can and re-check for cracks, scratches and other indications of something being wrong.
- Check every single valve visually (I understand that you have no caliper and no micrometer - again maybe somebody is helpful and can lend you that)
- Roll the valve on a glass or straight surface (same as the pushrods)
- Check the stems for wear
- Check the seat face of every valve (Maybe with a lens - It has to have a uniform thickness ring around the 45° face of the seat.
- Check the seat in the same way. No damage, no scratches.
- Clean them with a lint-free cloth
- Clean the guides with a lint free cloth and e.g. a plastic rod with which you can push a piece of cloth through the guide.
- Put the respective valve into it's guide with a drop of engine oil, then push and pull it wile turning it to determine if you have spots that grab on the stem. Valves have to slide effortless in their guide.
- Wiggle it side by side to see if it sits loose in the guide.
On the engine:
- Turn every cyllinder in order for it to sit on the top, flush with the block. Have someone hold the engine on the front nut with a breaker bar or with what you use to turn it. Then push down on the front and the read part of the piston to check if it has looseness. (Piston pin damage or rod small end bushing damaged if it can be moved.) Push on the intake side and exhaust side. The piston has to slightly rock.
More or less everything that comes to mind as for DIY no special tools required engine mechanical diagnosis. This is what we do when we disassemble a customer engine as a first measure to determine problems. No rocket science involved, something you can do in a garage but helpful as you gather a lot of information.
Be thorough, persistent and eye every square inch. Every mechanical movement in an engine can be cross-checked against a properly working part. But again it requires a lot of experience to judge parts from their looks. We will try to give you the best we have learned and seen.
Mind you - ask other people they may know more than I do.
Lesmyer, more advice before pulling the heads again?
The primary cause of the breakdown has still not been identified. After re-reading I do not like:
- Oil in the water! (Pics with the head off, shows the beige sludge on the head gasket)
- Do you still have the replaced blown head gasket?
- I do not like the corrosion on all the internals like the balance shaft (could indicate water in the oil)
- I do not like the fact that you still have no clue as to why the head gasket went
- Not liking the compression test. Have you re-done that?
- I don't like the over-torque explanation for valves to stay open (40 lbs are not enough to seriously damage a thread of 3/8" (10 mm) in a way that the valves stay open. (IMHO)
- You said that after pulling the pan the bearings were o.k. How did you determine that? Have you pulled the caps on #2 and #5 rods? How did you re-tighten them? (This is a big no-no without torque wrench)
What I would do: (And take a lot of pics and vids if you can)
As the vehicle sits there and you cannot use it in this condition without the risk of further damage and if you are willing to spend more time on it, I would suggest:
Go to the library and pull a copy of some of the books like "Rebuilding the CHevy small block". Excellent general guidance material. Try to grab a hold of a printout of the service manual pages on valvetrain and stud replacement for your particular vehicle. Maybe a friend or helpful CHEVY dealer? Sometimes rockauto has the full service manuals.
Preliminary
- Pull all the plugs (in order to turn it by hand)
- Take the top off again (Injection etc)
- Take the valve covers off
- Have a thorough look at the oil the engine should have squirted up from running it.
- Spin engine by hand and check all valves
- Use a straight edge on the tip of the rockers or the outside edge of the valve spring retainers. (Archaic method to check if they all move about the same - may need shifts left and right on the rim of the heads to adjust.)
- Check all the pistons tops for indentations, discoloration. Are there spots without any soot? Like washed away?
- When turning by hand observe if there is any resistance and listen for any noise in the valvetrain
- Have somebody turn the engine by hand and observe all the pistons. Any jerky movement of the piston? Rattle?
- Shine a light down every bore and check the cylinder walls all around. Scratches? Anything unusual for a medium shiny metal surface?
You have the heads out. If you can disassemble them I would take them apart. Mark all the single parts in order to be able to put them back into the original location. Nail polish is a nice marker. Mark the head as left and right (In or outside is obvious by the ports).
Careful when taking a valve assembly apart! Let a pro do that and use pro tools! Valvesprings store a huge amount of energy and if improperly handled can cause injury!
You may be lucky and find a friendly garage or machine shop. With pro tools that is a 20 minute job on both heads to pull the valves. Should not cost more than 20$.
- Have a careful look at the gasket surface. Every square inch. You want to check for cracks, discoloration, soot in radial deposits away from the combustion chamber. Check between the valve seats and around the spark plug boss.
- Especially carefully check where the original head-gasket had blown out
- Do the same on the block
- Clean the head gasket surface as good as you can and re-check for cracks, scratches and other indications of something being wrong.
- Check every single valve visually (I understand that you have no caliper and no micrometer - again maybe somebody is helpful and can lend you that)
- Roll the valve on a glass or straight surface (same as the pushrods)
- Check the stems for wear
- Check the seat face of every valve (Maybe with a lens - It has to have a uniform thickness ring around the 45° face of the seat.
- Check the seat in the same way. No damage, no scratches.
- Clean them with a lint-free cloth
- Clean the guides with a lint free cloth and e.g. a plastic rod with which you can push a piece of cloth through the guide.
- Put the respective valve into it's guide with a drop of engine oil, then push and pull it wile turning it to determine if you have spots that grab on the stem. Valves have to slide effortless in their guide.
- Wiggle it side by side to see if it sits loose in the guide.
On the engine:
- Turn every cyllinder in order for it to sit on the top, flush with the block. Have someone hold the engine on the front nut with a breaker bar or with what you use to turn it. Then push down on the front and the read part of the piston to check if it has looseness. (Piston pin damage or rod small end bushing damaged if it can be moved.) Push on the intake side and exhaust side. The piston has to slightly rock.
More or less everything that comes to mind as for DIY no special tools required engine mechanical diagnosis. This is what we do when we disassemble a customer engine as a first measure to determine problems. No rocket science involved, something you can do in a garage but helpful as you gather a lot of information.
Be thorough, persistent and eye every square inch. Every mechanical movement in an engine can be cross-checked against a properly working part. But again it requires a lot of experience to judge parts from their looks. We will try to give you the best we have learned and seen.
Mind you - ask other people they may know more than I do.
Lesmyer, more advice before pulling the heads again?
#93
06-23-2017, 04:16 AM
OP, do you have any pictures of the oil that came out of this engine when you bought it? I was looking at you oil pump thread and the oil in that picture looks almost white. If that much antifreeze got into the oil and the engine was ran much I will almost guarantee the bearings are toast.
My dad had to replace the engine in his 97 blazer for this exact issue. His intake gasket went and let antifreeze into the oil. His engine developed a knock the same day because he kept driving it.
My dad had to replace the engine in his 97 blazer for this exact issue. His intake gasket went and let antifreeze into the oil. His engine developed a knock the same day because he kept driving it.
#94
06-23-2017, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by Lesmyer
Current owner is the one that has been working on this vehicle. Yes he has made some mistakes, but he is young and everyone has to start somewhere.
Original problem was intake gaskets/coolant leak. Then distributor was damaged. Then screwdriver tip was broken off in cylinder trying to find #1 and head was pulled to retriever broken screwdriver tip. Then rockers were tightened excessively trying to adjust them, breaking off one stud. As I understand it, it has been no-start since near the beginning of this sequence.
The rounder corners on the stud in question happened when current owner tried to remove it. As I understand it, this is the only one he had problems getting out.
At this point it is unknown if this engine will last any time at all, but it should at least start without spending much on it. Fuel pressure doesn't seem to be an issue and he has spark at the coil and the injectors are being driven by the PCM.
Original problem was intake gaskets/coolant leak. Then distributor was damaged. Then screwdriver tip was broken off in cylinder trying to find #1 and head was pulled to retriever broken screwdriver tip. Then rockers were tightened excessively trying to adjust them, breaking off one stud. As I understand it, it has been no-start since near the beginning of this sequence.
The rounder corners on the stud in question happened when current owner tried to remove it. As I understand it, this is the only one he had problems getting out.
At this point it is unknown if this engine will last any time at all, but it should at least start without spending much on it. Fuel pressure doesn't seem to be an issue and he has spark at the coil and the injectors are being driven by the PCM.
Whatever he torqued rocker nuts to, it was enough to break off one of the rocker studs. To me that sounds like enough torque to damage others that did not break. Without me being there I have to take his word that he did not have compression on #2 and #5 until he loosened the rocker nuts. Seemed like he checked the compression several times - at least that is the idea that I got.
I haven't looked at his video yet, as my workplace blocks youtube, but I'm not surprised there are knocks with the looks of that #1 piston and the milky oil residue. Engine may very well be toast, but I'll keep going here as long as engine is not locked up and he wants to continue. I think this all has been (and can still be) a HUGE learning experience for him. At this point trying to not cost him a lot of money.
If he wants to continue, I suggest concentrating on getting the engine to stay running. Probably still has some vacuum leaks at that intake.
Last edited by LesMyer; 06-23-2017 at 08:57 AM.
#95
06-23-2017, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Tynan Tha Real Dill
ok I have the replacement studs in and torqued at 35 lbs, the rocker arms in and torqued at 20lbs (this didnt seem as hard to tighten this time as much as when we first started), replaced that upper plastic intake gasket, put back the throttle cables, then putting the cap on the distributor, adding "newer" plug wires, and new spark plugs (NGK V-Power), plug in and plug up everything...then should I try to fire it up ?
The pic of the upper intake is with the damaged gasket, most bolts on that side were loose. What would cause that damage ? And with that much air getting in from the upper intake, could that cause a no start too ?
The pic of the upper intake is with the damaged gasket, most bolts on that side were loose. What would cause that damage ? And with that much air getting in from the upper intake, could that cause a no start too ?
Last edited by LesMyer; 06-23-2017 at 08:19 AM.
#96
06-23-2017, 08:12 AM
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 220
Originally Posted by ChuckNTruck
When you spun the engine and broke the screwdriver tip in cyl 1, did the screwdriver tip force the engine to stop turning? Were you using the starter to turn the engine over or turning by hand?
I am wondering this because if the engine was spinning with enough force and that piston was stopped it could have bent a rod and the knocking sound is that rod contacting something.
I am wondering this because if the engine was spinning with enough force and that piston was stopped it could have bent a rod and the knocking sound is that rod contacting something.
#97
06-23-2017, 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by Tynan Tha Real Dill
When the engine stopped turning over by hand, I couldn't figure out why, so I turned it over by the starter.
#98
06-23-2017, 09:15 AM
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 220
Originally Posted by Lesmyer
So progress has been made with the engine starting. Now he can begin to evaluate if he has an engine that will be OK. I think the two likely big problems are that #1 piston/rod where the screwdriver tip was, and bearing damage from the coolant in the oil.
Whatever he torqued rocker nuts to, it was enough to break off one of the rocker studs. To me that sounds like enough torque to damage others that did not break. Without me being there I have to take his word that he did not have compression on #2 and #5 until he loosened the rocker nuts. Seemed like he checked the compression several times - at least that is the idea that I got.
I haven't looked at his video yet, as my workplace blocks youtube, but I'm not surprised there are knocks with the looks of that #1 piston and the milky oil residue. Engine may very well be toast, but I'll keep going here as long as engine is not locked up and he wants to continue. I think this all has been (and can still be) a HUGE learning experience for him. At this point trying to not cost him a lot of money.
If he wants to continue, I suggestconcentrating on getting the engine to stay running. Probably still has some vacuum leaks at that intake.
Whatever he torqued rocker nuts to, it was enough to break off one of the rocker studs. To me that sounds like enough torque to damage others that did not break. Without me being there I have to take his word that he did not have compression on #2 and #5 until he loosened the rocker nuts. Seemed like he checked the compression several times - at least that is the idea that I got.
I haven't looked at his video yet, as my workplace blocks youtube, but I'm not surprised there are knocks with the looks of that #1 piston and the milky oil residue. Engine may very well be toast, but I'll keep going here as long as engine is not locked up and he wants to continue. I think this all has been (and can still be) a HUGE learning experience for him. At this point trying to not cost him a lot of money.
If he wants to continue, I suggestconcentrating on getting the engine to stay running. Probably still has some vacuum leaks at that intake.
#99
06-23-2017, 09:51 AM
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 220
Originally Posted by Lesmyer
So progress has been made with the engine starting. Now he can begin to evaluate if he has an engine that will be OK. I think the two likely big problems are that #1 piston/rod where the screwdriver tip was, and bearing damage from the coolant in the oil.
Whatever he torqued rocker nuts to, it was enough to break off one of the rocker studs. To me that sounds like enough torque to damage others that did not break. Without me being there I have to take his word that he did not have compression on #2 and #5 until he loosened the rocker nuts. Seemed like he checked the compression several times - at least that is the idea that I got.
I haven't looked at his video yet, as my workplace blocks youtube, but I'm not surprised there are knocks with the looks of that #1 piston and the milky oil residue. Engine may very well be toast, but I'll keep going here as long as engine is not locked up and he wants to continue. I think this all has been (and can still be) a HUGE learning experience for him. At this point trying to not cost him a lot of money.
If he wants to continue, I suggest concentrating on getting the engine to stay running. Probably still has some vacuum leaks at that intake.
Whatever he torqued rocker nuts to, it was enough to break off one of the rocker studs. To me that sounds like enough torque to damage others that did not break. Without me being there I have to take his word that he did not have compression on #2 and #5 until he loosened the rocker nuts. Seemed like he checked the compression several times - at least that is the idea that I got.
I haven't looked at his video yet, as my workplace blocks youtube, but I'm not surprised there are knocks with the looks of that #1 piston and the milky oil residue. Engine may very well be toast, but I'll keep going here as long as engine is not locked up and he wants to continue. I think this all has been (and can still be) a HUGE learning experience for him. At this point trying to not cost him a lot of money.
If he wants to continue, I suggest concentrating on getting the engine to stay running. Probably still has some vacuum leaks at that intake.
Last edited by Tynan Tha Real Dill; 06-23-2017 at 09:54 AM.
#100
06-23-2017, 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tynan Tha Real Dill
How do I check for vacuum leaks ?
It could be leaking at any of the seals or gaskets or O-rings pictured here. Do you recall that all of them are in place?
http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part...ET BLAZER&vin=
Last edited by LesMyer; 06-23-2017 at 10:29 AM.
