Brand new battery dead + dome light stays on
#21
09-04-2011, 08:28 PM
The only thing I am 'stuck on' is providing factual information so that those wanted to learn may do so. I disagree with your interchange of terminology. 'Topping off' would be to replenish the amount of energy used from a fully charged battery when starting a vehicle. This task is performed by the alternator. 'Fully charging' a battery would require a battery charger. If you had read the very link you posted you would have realized that what I stated was true:
'If a battery has been completely discharged (e.g. the car lights were left on overnight) and next is given a fast charge for only a few minutes, then during the short charging time it develops only a charge near the interface. The battery voltage may rise to be close to the charger voltage so that the charging current decreases significantly. After a few hours this interface charge will spread to the volume of the electrode and electrolyte, leading to an interface charge so low that it may be insufficient to start the car.'
Charging the battery with the alternator would be considered a 'short charge'. The 'interface charge' is another term for 'surface charge'.
'On the other hand, if the battery is given a slow charge, which takes longer, then the battery will become more fully charged. During a slow charge the interface charge has time to redistribute to the volume of the electrodes and electrolyte, while being replenished by the charger. The battery voltage remains below the charger voltage throughout this process allowing charge to flow into the battery.'
A slow charge can only be applied with a battery charger. An alternator does not have this capability. In addition, since the alternator rapidly charges the battery the voltage rises quickly, so the battery will not allow the charge to flow into it once it reaches a certain level.
At this point it appears that your attitude is more of a contentious nature rather than that of one wanting to understand the basic principals of automotive electronics. With that said, this will be my final post in this thread.
------
Jay - Go have your alternator tested as was suggested. At the same time, take your battery and have it charged. If you do have a parasitic drain in your electrical system you will need a fully charged battery in order to properly perform any diagnostics. Good luck, I hope you are able to pinpoint your problem and can resolve it.
'If a battery has been completely discharged (e.g. the car lights were left on overnight) and next is given a fast charge for only a few minutes, then during the short charging time it develops only a charge near the interface. The battery voltage may rise to be close to the charger voltage so that the charging current decreases significantly. After a few hours this interface charge will spread to the volume of the electrode and electrolyte, leading to an interface charge so low that it may be insufficient to start the car.'
Charging the battery with the alternator would be considered a 'short charge'. The 'interface charge' is another term for 'surface charge'.
'On the other hand, if the battery is given a slow charge, which takes longer, then the battery will become more fully charged. During a slow charge the interface charge has time to redistribute to the volume of the electrodes and electrolyte, while being replenished by the charger. The battery voltage remains below the charger voltage throughout this process allowing charge to flow into the battery.'
A slow charge can only be applied with a battery charger. An alternator does not have this capability. In addition, since the alternator rapidly charges the battery the voltage rises quickly, so the battery will not allow the charge to flow into it once it reaches a certain level.
At this point it appears that your attitude is more of a contentious nature rather than that of one wanting to understand the basic principals of automotive electronics. With that said, this will be my final post in this thread.
------
Jay - Go have your alternator tested as was suggested. At the same time, take your battery and have it charged. If you do have a parasitic drain in your electrical system you will need a fully charged battery in order to properly perform any diagnostics. Good luck, I hope you are able to pinpoint your problem and can resolve it.
I did not post any links, maybe you should read more carefully. I base my opinions on facts that I have verified.
If you don't think an alternator will fully charge a battery, that is your choice. others on this forum might agree with you, some with me. I don't have an issue expressing my opinion and reading others that are different.
If you will not be posting because of me, I apologize.
#22
09-11-2011, 09:41 AM
A new alternator solved it for me
I too have a Blazer, although mine is a 99', but just a couple days after owning it (a week ago), my battery light came on. Another day or so later, I notced the dome light starting to stay on. Then the battery died and it stopped running. I charged the battery and took it to Advanced Auto where they tested (for free), my battery, alternator and starter all at the same time. My alternator was in the LOW category, so I bought one and switched it out. Now, I can see on my ampmeter that it is putting out 13v.
Now, to look into the dome light problem, well what do you know, it is again working properly. I know is was the alternator, because I tested it after I charged the battery, but before I changed the alternator.
Doesn't make sense, but it appears to be working.
JCK
Now, to look into the dome light problem, well what do you know, it is again working properly. I know is was the alternator, because I tested it after I charged the battery, but before I changed the alternator.
Doesn't make sense, but it appears to be working.
JCK
#23
09-11-2011, 12:08 PM
The only thing I am 'stuck on' is providing factual information so that those wanted to learn may do so. I disagree with your interchange of terminology. 'Topping off' would be to replenish the amount of energy used from a fully charged battery when starting a vehicle. This task is performed by the alternator. 'Fully charging' a battery would require a battery charger. If you had read the very link you posted you would have realized that what I stated was true:
'If a battery has been completely discharged (e.g. the car lights were left on overnight) and next is given a fast charge for only a few minutes, then during the short charging time it develops only a charge near the interface. The battery voltage may rise to be close to the charger voltage so that the charging current decreases significantly. After a few hours this interface charge will spread to the volume of the electrode and electrolyte, leading to an interface charge so low that it may be insufficient to start the car.'
Charging the battery with the alternator would be considered a 'short charge'. The 'interface charge' is another term for 'surface charge'.
'On the other hand, if the battery is given a slow charge, which takes longer, then the battery will become more fully charged. During a slow charge the interface charge has time to redistribute to the volume of the electrodes and electrolyte, while being replenished by the charger. The battery voltage remains below the charger voltage throughout this process allowing charge to flow into the battery.'
A slow charge can only be applied with a battery charger. An alternator does not have this capability. In addition, since the alternator rapidly charges the battery the voltage rises quickly, so the battery will not allow the charge to flow into it once it reaches a certain level.
At this point it appears that your attitude is more of a contentious nature rather than that of one wanting to understand the basic principals of automotive electronics. With that said, this will be my final post in this thread.
------
Jay - Go have your alternator tested as was suggested. At the same time, take your battery and have it charged. If you do have a parasitic drain in your electrical system you will need a fully charged battery in order to properly perform any diagnostics. Good luck, I hope you are able to pinpoint your problem and can resolve it.
'If a battery has been completely discharged (e.g. the car lights were left on overnight) and next is given a fast charge for only a few minutes, then during the short charging time it develops only a charge near the interface. The battery voltage may rise to be close to the charger voltage so that the charging current decreases significantly. After a few hours this interface charge will spread to the volume of the electrode and electrolyte, leading to an interface charge so low that it may be insufficient to start the car.'
Charging the battery with the alternator would be considered a 'short charge'. The 'interface charge' is another term for 'surface charge'.
'On the other hand, if the battery is given a slow charge, which takes longer, then the battery will become more fully charged. During a slow charge the interface charge has time to redistribute to the volume of the electrodes and electrolyte, while being replenished by the charger. The battery voltage remains below the charger voltage throughout this process allowing charge to flow into the battery.'
A slow charge can only be applied with a battery charger. An alternator does not have this capability. In addition, since the alternator rapidly charges the battery the voltage rises quickly, so the battery will not allow the charge to flow into it once it reaches a certain level.
At this point it appears that your attitude is more of a contentious nature rather than that of one wanting to understand the basic principals of automotive electronics. With that said, this will be my final post in this thread.
------
Jay - Go have your alternator tested as was suggested. At the same time, take your battery and have it charged. If you do have a parasitic drain in your electrical system you will need a fully charged battery in order to properly perform any diagnostics. Good luck, I hope you are able to pinpoint your problem and can resolve it.
If you went to a school to be a mechanic, go get a refund.
Charging a battery is not about supplying a certain amount of voltage to the battery from the alternator it is about supplying amperage.
A battery charger can properly slow charge a battery using a low amperage setting to not overheat the battery during charging. But it can also fully charge the battery by using a higher amperage setting but runs the risk of overheating the battery. Is the higher setting charging the battery fully? Yes it is but if the battery is damaged by low acid level or abuse then charging it on a higher or lower setting will only matter because a "improper battery" will overheat easier.
A alternator is rated in amperage not voltage, in the following example if a alternators output is 120 amps at 3500 rpm and the motor at 3500 rpm only requires 60 amps to operate and the rest of the electrical system (radio lights etc) only requires another 30 amps to run then the battery is receiving 30 amps to charge to full.
If your alternator can not charge a battery to full then you either have a bad battery to begin with that will overheat regardless of charger unless you baby charge it at 1 amp, or your alternator is under rated to supply all the crap you have on your vehicle with enough amperage while also having enough in reserve to charge the battery.
And to give a background i have over 25 years experience in electronics and automobile electrical systems and have built RF and Audio systems for vehicles that used upwards of 2000+ watts of RF power or 20,000 watts of Audio power. Sometimes requiring multiple alternators and battery packs to function while running but would all recharge off the engine alternator.
#24
09-11-2011, 01:00 PM
If you went to a school to be a mechanic, go get a refund.
Charging a battery is not about supplying a certain amount of voltage to the battery from the alternator it is about supplying amperage.
....
If your alternator can not charge a battery to full then you either have a bad battery to begin with that will overheat regardless of charger unless you baby charge it at 1 amp, or your alternator is under rated to supply all the crap you have on your vehicle with enough amperage while also having enough in reserve to charge the battery.
And to give a background i have over 25 years experience in electronics and automobile electrical systems ..
Charging a battery is not about supplying a certain amount of voltage to the battery from the alternator it is about supplying amperage.
....
If your alternator can not charge a battery to full then you either have a bad battery to begin with that will overheat regardless of charger unless you baby charge it at 1 amp, or your alternator is under rated to supply all the crap you have on your vehicle with enough amperage while also having enough in reserve to charge the battery.
And to give a background i have over 25 years experience in electronics and automobile electrical systems ..
I think the poor innocents ought to have a little background here:
A century or so ago, electrical students were taught 'Current Flow Theory' except it wasnt called that because all the experts were certain that electrical current flowed from Positive to Negative. That's why it's called positive and negative.. as in 'positive charge'.
This caused a little problem when the courses started including vacuum tubes. Kinda hard to explain why you had to heat an element in order to attract 'positrons' or whatever you want to call that magical pixie stuff.
REAL electricity operates on 'Electron theory' and it seems there are several of us formal trained in that.
Yeppers, that battery charging current.. meaning the free electrons.. are actually going in via that 'ground' cable and out of the battery the same way. Cool, huh!
- I'm sure it would make it more confusing if I pointed out that the alternator was 'sucking' free electrons out of the positive side of the battery but it doesnt really matter so ignore that. Only thing matters is that in a fully charged battery, the positive plates aint hardly got any free electrons and the negative side got a whole bunch and can make more chemically.
The point: Battery doesnt know crap about where the electrons are coming from.. it only knows it's getting them and it will charge as long as it's getting them.
And electrons will continue to flow as long as there is a difference in voltage {used to be called difference in potential} between the battery and the source. That is where the 'surface charge' comes in. There's no magic to the surface charge.. it's just a self-protective feature and it changes in potential right along with the level of charge.
You are not allowed your own version of the truth just because some ignorant hack with an ASE taught you different. Or you think he did.
You might want to think that it is the surface charge that actually permanently charges the battery. Or not. I dont care.. I just know I've never had to take a battery out of a car to give it a booster shot, and they typically last me 5 years.
I've elected to do that a few times but that mean it needs one.. just means I neglected or abused it and swapped another one in temporarily.
Last edited by pettyfog; 09-11-2011 at 01:11 PM.
#25
09-11-2011, 01:41 PM
I tired to keep it in laymen terms but thanks for the extra info for others.
Not to mention the thinking that a 1-15 amp household charger could do a better charge then a 90+ amp alternator is just fools talk.
Unhook the little wire on your alternator and run your truck with your household charger hooked up to the battery and either the battery will die or the charger will go up in a ball of flames. That should tell you really quick that the alternator is far superior at its job then your walmart charger.
Yes a foot bicycle pump will fill a car tire just like a 125psi 20 gal compressor will but if you had to do it every day your going to burn up that foot pump.
Not to mention the thinking that a 1-15 amp household charger could do a better charge then a 90+ amp alternator is just fools talk.
Unhook the little wire on your alternator and run your truck with your household charger hooked up to the battery and either the battery will die or the charger will go up in a ball of flames. That should tell you really quick that the alternator is far superior at its job then your walmart charger.
Yes a foot bicycle pump will fill a car tire just like a 125psi 20 gal compressor will but if you had to do it every day your going to burn up that foot pump.
Last edited by Tobashadow; 09-11-2011 at 01:45 PM.
#26
09-16-2011, 04:21 PM
Charging a battery is not about supplying a certain amount of voltage to the battery from the alternator it is about supplying amperage.
And to give a background i have over 25 years experience in electronics and automobile electrical systems and have built RF and Audio systems for vehicles that used upwards of 2000+ watts of RF power or 20,000 watts of Audio power. Sometimes requiring multiple alternators and battery packs to function while running but would all recharge off the engine alternator.
And to give a background i have over 25 years experience in electronics and automobile electrical systems and have built RF and Audio systems for vehicles that used upwards of 2000+ watts of RF power or 20,000 watts of Audio power. Sometimes requiring multiple alternators and battery packs to function while running but would all recharge off the engine alternator.
2000 watts RF power isn't even enough to get yourself heard at a keydown. It would make a nice driver for a bigger box though.
#27
09-23-2011, 04:59 PM
Okay so I got my battery jumped and ever since then it has started up and ran just fine, stayed around 14-15 amps. Well a few days ago, I went to check to see if my high beams worked, I turned the key over once, so the car is ON/RUN, the engine is not running yet. I switched on my high beams and turned the key back off. I then tried to turn it over to start it and my battery was down. So I've narrowed it down to using my accessories without my engine running runs my battery down very quickly. I can use my accessories while the engine is running without a problem, just when the car is powered on is when it dies down... could it be a short somewhere? or maybe a fuse?
#28
09-24-2011, 10:08 AM
Okay so I got my battery jumped and ever since then it has started up and ran just fine, stayed around 14-15 amps. Well a few days ago, I went to check to see if my high beams worked, I turned the key over once, so the car is ON/RUN, the engine is not running yet. I switched on my high beams and turned the key back off. I then tried to turn it over to start it and my battery was down. So I've narrowed it down to using my accessories without my engine running runs my battery down very quickly. I can use my accessories while the engine is running without a problem, just when the car is powered on is when it dies down... could it be a short somewhere? or maybe a fuse?
If your battery cannot power accessories for a few minutes after charging at 14 volts then you have a bad connection to your battery or that new battery is bad.
Check voltage at the battery while your headlights are on and engine not running, the voltage should start above 12.5v and stay above 12v for a quite a while. If it dips below 12v quickly, the battery is bad. A good battery will power just your headlights for a couple hours and still start your truck.
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